Projects/Open Text Books/1

= Open Textbook Virtual Meeting, 29th September 2008 =

Agenda

 * Introductions and project updates
 * Pledgebank for educators, researchers and other prospective textbook authors?
 * Catering textbooks to classrooms? Re-using textbook content and comparing educational curricula in different areas?
 * Documenting educational curricula in different countries?
 * Building, federating and integrating textbook registries: metadata for open textbooks...
 * Contacting existing online textbook authors regarding open licensing? (see olai/opentextbook...)
 * Judy Baker: Tools for open textbook developers who are NOT tech savvy and do not want to learn wiki formatting, etc.
 * Amee Godwin: Training teachers around using and creating open textbooks and materials
 * Shall we have regular meetings? Conference calls? VOIP?

IRC Log
(Time in CEST)

#!irc 18:59:33 	Hi all 18:59:51 	hello 19:00:11 *	JudyBaker (991295c3@webchat.mibbit.com) has joined #okfn 19:00:24 	Alright.. 19:00:39 	Hi All. 19:00:49 	Hi Folks 19:01:02 	I make it 1800 BST, but I suggest we wait another few minutes for others to turn up... 19:01:22 	yes, let's wait a bit so that we don't have repeat stuff 19:01:33 	JudyBaker: exactly :-) 19:01:56 *	mib_cvrnne has quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client) 19:02:01 	G'day y'all 19:02:04 *	mib_gywyuc (456ddc05@webchat.mibbit.com) has joined #okfn 19:02:15 	Hi Rick_GTP :-) 19:02:17 	hello 19:02:54 	lll 19:03:00 *	mib_gywyuc has quit 19:03:05 	sorry :/ 19:03:13 	Greetings, everyone 19:03:33 	Thanks Jonathan for organizing 19:03:33 	Hello jonathan_Connexions! 19:03:43 *	karen_at_k12opened (4051273e@webchat.mibbit.com) has joined #okfn 19:04:19 	ameeg: no problem at all, I'm pleased at the good response there's been! 19:04:35 	Hi karen_at_k12opened 19:04:40 	Alright... 19:04:40 	Greetings, all! 19:04:40 *	emerika (~brad@64.81.39.62) has joined #okfn 19:04:41 	We had a conversation a month ago and realized there are a lot of activities around OT in the EU and the US and elsewhere 19:04:48 	and we may not know about each other 19:05:06 	Hi 19:05:28 	Shall we begin? 19:05:37 	yes 19:05:41 	yes 19:05:50 	yes, let's begin 19:05:51 	First of all I suggest we each type our full name and affiliation so we all know who each other are... 19:06:09 	Rick Watson, Global Text Project and University of Georgia 19:06:10 	So we have a record on the log of who participated.. 19:06:14 	Amee Godwin, ISKME, OER Commons, Calif 19:06:19 	jwyg = Jonathan Gray, The Open Knowledge Foundation + Open Text Book 19:06:23 *	mib_9pubxh (456ddc05@webchat.mibbit.com) has joined #okfn 19:06:25 	Karen Fasimpaur from K12 Opened and the Kids Open Dictionary (http://dictionary.k12opened.com) 19:06:26 	Judy Baker, Director of Community College Open Textbook and Dean of Foothill Global Access, Foothill College, California 19:06:40 	Jonathan Emmons, community development specialist for the Connexions Project 19:06:44 	Don McCubbrey, University of Denver, Co-Project leader if Global Text (http://globaltext.org) with Rick Watson 19:06:49 	Brad Emerson K12 Opened.com and the Kids Open Dictionary 19:07:07 	Community College Consortium for Open Educational Resources (http://cccoer.wordpress.org) 19:07:26 	Brilliant... 19:07:29 	Then perhaps we can look at the agenda at http://okfn.org/wiki/opentextbooks 19:07:30 	Mike Chelen, OpenSci.Info 19:07:49 	If anyone has anything else they'd particularly like to discuss, perhaps they can mention it now so we can add it? 19:08:02 	And then we can roughly follow the agenda? 19:08:06 	Sub, (french) admin and main contributor to http://fr.wikibooks.org/ 19:08:08 	Looks good. 19:08:32 	Andrew Whitworth, English Wikibooks 19:08:50 <mib_9pubxh>	Sanford Forte, Senior Research and Project Consultant, Community College Open Textbook Project; and, Founder/Director, California open Source Textbook Project 19:09:03 *	sub already work with Andrew 19:09:19 	The two things I'd really like to come away with is a couple of things we might be able to collaborate on, and arrangements for regular meetings in the future if others are keen.. 19:09:45 *	mpal (~Murugan@h-66-134-40-218.snvacaid.covad.net) has joined #okfn 19:09:56 <JudyBaker>	New agenda item: Tools for open textbook developers who are NOT tech savvy and do not want to learn wiki formatting, etc. 19:10:16 	Great idea Judy! 19:10:24 *	RobBeezer (cfcf7fe6@webchat.mibbit.com) has joined #okfn 19:10:49 <JudyBaker>	Is anyone here from CK12 Flexbooks? 19:10:56 <karen_at_k12opened>	Judy, we've brainstormed some kind of service where folks send in original content they are willing to open license in whatever format they have it, and we/someone wiki-izes it. 19:10:58 	Yes, this is Murugan 19:11:02 	from CK-12 Foundation 19:11:20 *	MarkHorner (63947b86@webchat.mibbit.com) has joined #okfn 19:11:25 *	mlinksva (~cc@adsl-71-134-235-132.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net) has joined #okfn 19:11:39 	I've added it to the agenda at http://okfn.org/wiki/opentextbooks 19:11:41 <Andrew>	karent_at_k12opened, I've done a lot of that by hand! Some formats, like LaTeX are particularly difficult to translate 19:11:42 <JudyBaker>	Hi Murugan, is it okay if I share with the group my technical difficulties trying to post an open textbook to Flexbooks? 19:12:04 	Sure 19:12:06 <RobBeezer>	Nicole Allen asked me to let everyone know she had some unexpected travel this morning but may join at 40 minutes past the hour. 19:12:07 	are there french-speaking people here (just for know) ? 19:12:16 	Thanks 19:12:18 	Is it related to the agenda of this meeting? 19:12:23 	* Thanks RobBeezer! 19:12:28 	Another agenda item: Training teachers around using and creating open textbooks and materials 19:12:47 	@Judy, if this is not at a common good for other folks - I will prefer we do it offline - in order to respect other people's time 19:12:48 	I'll add it now ameeg 19:13:15 <karen_at_k12opened>	We've done a fair amount with conversions. I was even imaging folks sending hard copy. The content is the hard part; formats/ digitization is easier. 19:13:27 	JudyBaker, what about WYSIWYG wiki systems like http://wikiwig.sourceforge.net/ or http://wiki.zoho.com/ ? 19:13:27 <karen_at_k12opened>	Training teachers -- very important! 19:13:42 	mpal: I think this sounds sensible if others agree.. 19:13:47 *	KarienBez (63947b86@webchat.mibbit.com) has joined #okfn 19:14:04 <karen_at_k12opened>	Add to training the idea of awareness building. The vast majority of teachers aren't even aware of open as an option. 19:14:21 	so true, karen 19:14:32 	Thats true... 19:14:38 	ameeg, good point and related to what tools are used to contribute (author/edit/publish) since that can affect training goals 19:14:58 <jonathan_Connexions>	(FYI, anybody who is not familiar with Connexions, here are some links to a couple of our press materials: http://rhaptos.org/docs/presskit/cnxbrochuresposter/brochure-max-cnx0208A4.pdf, http://rhaptos.org/docs/presskit/cnxbrochuresposter/2-pager-2008-09-15-combined.pdf) 19:15:02 <karen_at_k12opened>	Perhaps a good area of collaboration would be co-presenting at conferences, etc. I've done some of this (mostly at K-12 events) but would love to collaborate with some of you on more. 19:15:14 *	cwg (~chatzilla@adsl-69-107-118-245.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net) has joined #okfn 19:15:22 	If its alright with everyone, I suggest we move onto the first agenda item? 19:15:38 	yes, karen, reach me on this 19:15:50 	Connexions has very powerful interface (using Plone iirc?) and it would be important to maintain the feature capapilities in any other interface 19:16:22 <jonathan_Connexions>	Plone, that's correct 19:16:31 	Karen: agreed.. 19:16:41 	does anyone have experience with pledgebank and its reliability? 19:16:41 <MarkHorner>	for first agenda item - I'll update our records on oergrapevine 19:16:47 <JudyBaker>	Project Update for Community College Open Textbook Project: Coordination with Connexions to post Collaborative Statistics open textbook, several faculty trainings given and planned, 19:17:08 	another way of raising awareness and getting educators to consider contributing to open textbooks might be using pledgebank 19:17:12 *	cwg is now known as chriswaterguy 19:17:18 	http://www.pledgebank.com/ 19:17:23 *	ADunn (4b953d31@webchat.mibbit.com) has joined #okfn 19:17:32 <MarkHorner>	can we all agree to use oergrapevine for a project listing? 19:17:45 <MarkHorner>	http://oergrapevine.org/OER_projects 19:18:03 	What do people thing about co-creating a Pledgebank pledge for educators 19:18:31 <JudyBaker>	Pledgebank looks interesting. How well has it worked for anyone here. 19:18:34 	How would it be different from using CCLearn as the registry 19:18:34 	MarkHorner: Is it alright if we discuss this when it comes up in the agenda: # Building, federating and integrating textbook registries: metadata for open textbooks... 19:18:39 <karen_at_k12opened>	I'm not familiar with Pledgebank (other than just looking at the page). What is the thought behind connecting it to OER? 19:18:58 	why can't CCLearn used as the PledgeBank. 19:19:09 	Author's will be confused if we bring one more entity. 19:19:18 	Karen: The idea would be to create and promote a pledge, that said something like like 'I will contribute or help with putting together an open textbook for high school students if X other people do the same' 19:19:33 	Can it be part of CCLearn? 19:19:39 	I'm familiar w/ pledgebank either. OER Commons is also like a registry for locating projects and resources 19:19:43 <MarkHorner>	JWYG: thought that project updates is a listing - related for first agenda item 19:19:45 	mpal: what is the relevant part of CCLearn we should look at for pledges? 19:19:59 <MarkHorner>	are we not on first agenda item? 19:20:07 <karen_at_k12opened>	That's interesting. How would Pledgebank be promoted. There seem to be *so* many registries/sites/etc. already out there. None seems to have big traction in OER. 19:20:17 <karen_at_k12opened>	We need a marketing plan for OER. :) 19:20:25 <JudyBaker>	Please post your Project Updates to get to 1st agenda item 19:20:28 	I can put you in touch with Aarash Bissell - they are working on a search index - that covers even beyond OERCommons 19:21:00 <JudyBaker>	If we stick to Agenda, it will be less confusing for all 19:21:02 <karen_at_k12opened>	I believe that OER Commons is one of the big inputs into ccLearn. (Is Ahrash here?) 19:21:11 	JWYG: CCLearn is http://learn.creativecommons.org/resources/ 19:21:42 	They crawl the OER Commons site and others. 19:21:49 <mib_9pubxh>	"We need a marketing plan for OER." YES!! 19:21:57 <MarkHorner>	Project update: Siyavula - full k12 curriculum development for SA - working with connexions - will add additional functionality specific for k12 - have 40 000 pages seed material and launching training program for teachers in February 19:22:13 	mpal: I know, but I was wondering how it related to using pledgebank for educators to produce new textbook content... 19:22:25 <karen_at_k12opened>	Collaborative project #1: Write a marketing plan for OER. I'll outline it if you all want to suggest a place to house it. 19:22:31 	MarkHorner: great! 19:22:55 	karen: you're more than welcome to use http://okfn.org/wiki/opentextbooks 19:23:22 	Project Update: OER Commons gathering metadata for textbooks: http://www.oercommons.org/courses/material_types/textbooks; researchers on the Community College OT project and Siyavula project. 19:23:50 <karen_at_k12opened>	jwyg: I will do that. Can we post these chat notes there too? 19:24:48 <JudyBaker>	Post your Project Updates to OER Grapevine (http://oergrapevine.org/)? And, keep it updated monthly? 19:24:49 <karen_at_k12opened>	Project update: K12 Open Ed has launched an awareness building campaign for open ed in K-12 and launched the first open dictionary for kids. We passed 10% of words defined this weekend. Output options include text, rtf, wikitext, html, ppt, and more. 19:25:03 	Project Update: CK-12 Foundation seeded 5 complete books, and 150+ individual topic/chapter units. http://flexbooks.ck12.org/  Working with Commonwealth of Virginia to produce a book on Contemproary Physics. Complete the curriculum outline for STEM in 6-12 grades. 19:25:23 	karen: thats what I'm planning to do... 19:25:31 <MarkHorner>	I think we should just sitck with OER grapevine for the listing - its neutral and its got a lot of stuff already 19:25:32 <karen_at_k12opened>	Perhaps we can use http://okfn.org/wiki/opentextbooks to also set up a list of all of us and our project links and updates. 19:25:59 	karen: great idea... I suggest we don't edit all at once... 19:26:12 <MarkHorner>	karen_at_k12opened: why not add to oer grapevine - its a got a list already 19:26:12 <karen_at_k12opened>	either one is fine. just so we all know where we are. :) 19:26:21 	I can scrap log and compile later... 19:26:31 	*scrape the log that is 19:26:32 <jonathan_Connexions>	Connexions update: We've recently rolled out a number of new features to facilitate the authoring and lensing (reviewing and bookmarking content) processes. We've recently released Collaborative Statistics, which has been a huge success and generated a lot of positive press and offers  form authors to post content.  We've also been targeting a number of markets for new content, including a collaboration with Siyavula to bring a full K-12 cur 19:26:32 	what about using a planet ? it's the easiest way to make everyone aware of the updates of all projects. 19:26:34 	Project: Opensci.info has released PLoS Biology vol.1-6 on BitTorrent- http://feeds.feedburner.com/opensciinfo/bittorrent 19:27:10 	mikechelen: very interesting! 19:27:12 <JudyBaker>	What is a planet? 19:27:24 	a planet is a way of aggregating RSS feeds 19:27:54 <jonathan_Connexions>	*Press = New York Times and Chronicle of Higher Education articles in particular, both of which are generating a great deal of buzz both in mainstream publications as well as in the blogosphere. 19:27:57 <MarkHorner>	not all projects have an RSS feed 19:27:59 <Andrew>	planet is like a group of related blogs 19:28:09 <MarkHorner>	or blog for that matter 19:28:12 	MarkHorner: they should :) 19:28:19 <karen_at_k12opened>	It's kind of amazing how fractured OER is already getting...almost before it's even a "movement." 19:28:37 <MarkHorner>	sub: no argument there - but lets be realistic 19:28:39 <JudyBaker>	At the very least, we could remember to tag our stuff with the same tag (e.g. opentextbooks) 19:28:53 	Judy - this is true.. 19:28:55 <MarkHorner>	shouldn't the tag be more general - OER? 19:29:03 <karen_at_k12opened>	I guess "more is better" to some extent, but there sure are a lot of sites 19:29:05 	Perhaps people could use both.. 19:29:15 <karen_at_k12opened>	Judy - common tag is great idea 19:29:23 	MarkHorner: a planet don't need to syndicate everything : half of the projects updates should be a good start... 19:29:35 <JudyBaker>	Unfortunately, google report for OER renders lots of stuff unrelated 19:29:52 	Is anyone keen to look into aggregating relevant feeds? 19:29:58 <karen_at_k12opened>	OER is more general; opentextbooks implies a certain kind of pedagogy (like wikibooks) 19:30:07 	Perhaps just regarding Open textbooks in the first instance? 19:30:28 	I did a presentation on addressing some of these issues http://www.slideshare.net/CK12/ck-12-wikimania-2008 19:30:32 <MarkHorner>	we've got 40 000 pages of workbooks 19:30:36 	MarkHorner, is that though shuttleworthfoundation.org ? 19:30:36 <MarkHorner>	not textbooks 19:30:44 	FYI - CCLearn is working on RDFA markups to have these common lingo 19:31:06 	It is important we all start with what CCLearn is trying to do 19:31:11 <MarkHorner>	yes - FHSST and Shuttleworth Foundation 19:31:24 	should i give a "update" for french wikibooks ? 19:31:25 <karen_at_k12opened>	mpal, agreed. Let's try to get Ahrash in on the next conversation we have. 19:31:51 <KarienBez>	i agree re supporting what CC Learn is trying to do 19:31:57 	mpal: presentation looks interesting... 19:32:00 <JudyBaker>	any more on Project Updates or are we on to another topic? 19:32:04 	jwyg, thanks! working on some other PLoS journals now, as well as guides for the publishing process :) 19:32:17 <MarkHorner>	who is meeting chair? 19:32:44 	MarkHorner: I proposed the meeting... 19:32:53 	along with Amee 19:33:17 	I propose we move onto the next agenda item.. after intros/updates... 19:33:23 	http://okfn.org/wiki/opentextbooks 19:33:30 	which is using pledgebank 19:33:50 <karen_at_k12opened>	<just sent Ahrash an email> 19:33:52 	http://www.pledgebank.com/faq 19:33:54 <jonathan_Connexions>	Can you give us a quick background about pledgebank and how you envision this working? 19:34:00 	Of course... 19:34:34 <JudyBaker>	Give example of successful use of Pledgebank on a project similar to ours? 19:34:39 <karen_at_k12opened>	So....how would Pledgebank be different/better than the various other channels mentioned? I do like the idea of making commitments to do something. 19:34:46 	Example pledgebank uses from site: 'I will start recycling if 100 people in my town will do the same'; 'I will organise my child's school play if 3 other parents will help'; 'I will build a useful website if 1000 people promise to contribute to it'. 19:35:09 	Its for a very specific concrete activity 19:35:15 	so for example 19:35:17 <JudyBaker>	Does it provide any tools other than messaging and commitment? 19:35:31 	we might create a pledge which said: Something like 'I will contribute or help with putting together an open textbook for high school students if X other people do the same' 19:35:47 	Has it been used for OER, do you know? is it like promising to contribute to wikieducator when joining? 19:35:54 	JudyBaker: I think the main use would be to try and reach out to more potential textbook contributors 19:35:59 <JudyBaker>	Sorta like Capetown and Make Textbooks Affordable pledges? 19:36:15 <karen_at_k12opened>	Yes, sounds like the Wikieducator idea. I think they've had good success with that. 19:36:43 <karen_at_k12opened>	From my experience, a lot of people thing OER is great, but don't DO much to contribute. Maybe a pledge to action would help. 19:36:54 	Exactly 19:36:56 <karen_at_k12opened>	There is little downside to trying it to see. 19:37:05 	a concrete contribution to a specific book 19:37:06 <Don>	I like the pledge idea 19:37:08 	a chapter, a section... 19:37:09 	etc. 19:37:19 	And some mechanism for following it up... 19:37:25 	And a deadline :-) 19:37:35 <JudyBaker>	I'd like to use it to get a group of faculty to review an existing open textbook, would that work? 19:37:47 	That sounds like a great idea Judy 19:37:51 <karen_at_k12opened>	What do we need to do to set this up? Can we all put widgets for it on our sites? 19:37:52 <KarienBez>	will we point them to specific projects where they can contribute? 19:37:52 *	rgrp (~rgrp@92.17.26.1) has joined #okfn 19:38:23 	I think the reason it would be interesting as an item for collaboration would be to align our efforts to get wider contribution to open textbooks 19:38:25 <Andrew>	Authoring/reviewing/editing particular chapters, for instance 19:38:29 	Exactly.. 19:38:29 *	allenm (~amajorov@76.226.61.237) has joined #okfn 19:38:31 <JudyBaker>	Probably best to use it for very specific projects rather than a general pledge to just develop open textbooks 19:38:32 <Andrew>	or adding a single section/example problem 19:38:42 	Judy: my thoughts too 19:38:59 	Andrew: in many ways the smaller/more concrete the better! 19:39:05 <JudyBaker>	Need to follow Adoption of Innovation theory to get involvement 19:39:07 <MarkHorner>	will be easier if the workflow is a reflection of the way things work in practice for whatever trial you do 19:39:09 <KarienBez>	if we want people to contribute, we have to make it as easy as possible, i.e. be very specific about where and how 19:39:28 	KarienBez: true... 19:39:43 <jonathan_Connexions>	Another angle to consider. . . authors have much more motivation to contribute when the materials are being used. . . 19:39:47 <karen_at_k12opened>	Yes, small is good. We've had good luck with collaboration on our dictionary because the "modules" are SO small (you can define or edit just a single one word). 19:39:49 <JudyBaker>	Okay, I'll give it try in Community College Open Textbooks to get reviews for Algebra open textbooks 19:40:09 	Judy - that sounds great! 19:40:11 <jonathan_Connexions>	And there are so many benefits to using open materials. . . perhaps another way to go is to work towards educators adopting these resources 19:40:26 	Judy: where can participants do the reviewing? 19:40:32 <JudyBaker>	Ask for pledge to simply adopt an open textbook? 19:40:32 	jonathan_Connexions - that sounds like another great idea... 19:41:00 	JudyBaker: and perhaps consider contributing to it? 19:41:07 <jonathan_Connexions>	One of the primary use cases with Connexions is to have educators adopt a book and customize specific modules 19:41:07 <JudyBaker>	CCOT Project reviews can be done at http://collegeopentextbooks.ning.com 19:41:31 <jonathan_Connexions>	And lots of little updates add up to a lot of raw materials that can be used by others 19:41:37 *	Mike_lifeguard (~Mike_life@hlfxns0169w-142177153198.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net) has joined #okfn 19:41:54 	So to summarise, is anyone interested in co-creating a pledge? 19:42:03 	Andrew, planet looks interesting, have you tried friendfeed.com? it does something similar with "rooms" and is web-based 19:42:27 <Andrew>	I haven't seen friendfeed before, I'll look into it 19:42:34 <mib_9pubxh>	<Sanford> How about pushing for pledges from early adopter department chairs and administrators, to encourage top-down messaging 19:42:39 <JudyBaker>	Community College Open Textbook Project can co-create a pledge with Connexions 19:42:43 	Thats true - it would be great if someone would look into making a basic open textbook room on friendfeed in the first instance 19:43:00 <karen_at_k12opened>	Sorry, if I missed this, but are we doing one pledge for various OER projects (combined) or one per project? 19:43:17 <JudyBaker>	I'll report to the group on the success or failure of setting up a pledge from Stat faculty to adopt Collaborative Stats 19:43:20 <karen_at_k12opened>	I'm up for either, but I think a combined one (with various specific projects included) would be more effective. 19:43:23 	karen: possibly different quite specific pledges for different projects? 19:43:34 	JudyBaker: fantastic... 19:44:21 <JudyBaker>	Best to have specific Pledges in order to have incremental and successive success toward larger goal of buy-in to concept of Open Textbook 19:44:43 	So Judy will look into creating a Pledge for Stat faculty to adopt Collaborative Stats.. 19:45:02 <jonathan_Connexions>	It would be unrealistic to set up a pledge for every project, but perhaps a few key examplars? 19:45:20 	Like I will contribute to an open K12 maths textbook? 19:45:35 *	christopher_olah has quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client) 19:45:47 <KarienBez>	great if judy could try it and feed back to the group 19:45:48 	Or 'I will adopt an open textbook'? 19:45:58 	KarienBez: agreed 19:46:06 	Shall we move onto next agenda item? 19:46:19 	We can also set up a pledge from authors of existing content to make something open for the first time. 19:46:22 <jonathan_Connexions>	Sounds good 19:46:39 	ameeg: great idea! 19:46:39 	Hi all, this is Jaroslaw Lipszyc Free Textbooks Poland 19:46:49 	sorry for being lat to the party 19:46:54 	no problme 19:46:57 	ameeg: or even, getting existing online textbook authors to adopt an open license? 19:47:02 <JudyBaker>	Hi Jaroslaw, post your Project's URL 19:47:10 	hi jaroslaw :-) 19:47:31 	jwyg: yes 19:47:34 	So the next item on the agenda.. 19:47:39 <JudyBaker>	Yes, getting existing online textbook authors to adopt an open license would be very valuable, I already have a list of at least 50 of these 19:47:44 	or rather the next two as they are rather similar... 19:47:59 	Judy: exactly! 19:48:12 <JudyBaker>	Next agenda item: Catering textbooks to classrooms? 19:48:15 	we started an initiative to do this: http://www.okfn.org/wiki/olai/opentextbook 19:48:26 	(re: contacting existing authors..) 19:48:27 *	mcorral (~mcorral@c-69-246-119-249.hsd1.mi.comcast.net) has joined #okfn 19:48:33 	Judy: exactly.. 19:48:34 <jonathan_Connexions>	Hello Jaroslaw 19:48:51 	I'm really interested to hear if anyone is working on documenting curricula in different areas... 19:49:02 	at different levels in different subjects.. 19:49:30 <JudyBaker>	the OKFN letter looks perfect. I'll use it but what if someone else has already sent that letter to the author? won't that be annoying to the author? 19:49:57 	we should log who we have contacted on that page 19:50:01 	Judy: thats why it would be good to document who you've contacted on wiki 19:50:03 <JudyBaker>	Nevermind, I'll take the risk of annoying the author. 19:50:04 	rgrp: exactly 19:50:10 	We have a small research project called Travel Well together with European Schoolnet, studying attributes of resources that work in diff. areas 19:50:14 	rgrp = Rufus Pollock, The Open Knowledge Foundation 19:50:37 	ameeg: interesting 19:50:39 <JudyBaker>	What does this mean? " working on documenting curricula in different areas" 19:50:40 *	nicole (d1db40aa@webchat.mibbit.com) has joined #okfn 19:51:03 	JudyBaker: e.g. linking to relevant national curricula documents 19:51:07 	JudyBaker, maybe it would be nice to try and personalize when contacting people, if you know a particular author you might give them examples in their field of study 19:51:11 	JudyBaker: in different subjects.. 19:51:19 	Hi nicole" 19:51:20 	! 19:51:23 	hi everyone, this is nicole allen 19:51:30 *	SteveFoerster (c76f60c3@webchat.mibbit.com) has joined #okfn 19:51:39 <JudyBaker>	CK12 does the linking to national and state standards in US 19:51:39 <jonathan_Connexions>	Hi Nicole 19:51:53 	hey 19:51:55 <mib_9pubxh>	<Sanford> Hi Nicole 19:51:58 	JudyBaker: Brilliant 19:52:04 	Where abouts? 19:52:14 	for those who don't know me, I run a student open textbook promotion effort in the US 19:52:15 <JudyBaker>	Hi Nicole, later after this, you may want to read a transcript of this chat, particularly the part about Pledges 19:52:39 	yeah, i was on a plane down to Gainesville FL to run an emergency voter registration drive at UFL 19:52:40 	"documenting curricula in different areas:: I'm thinking these are challenges around reuse and localization, curric standards, being one challenge 19:52:44 *	Morrell (95a97d8a@webchat.mibbit.com) has joined #okfn 19:53:05 	JudyBaker http://wolnepodreczniki.pl/ 19:53:24 <KarienBez>	siyavula is mapping it's content to the South African K12 curriculum 19:53:34 	Brilliant.. 19:53:42 <karen_at_k12opened>	There are tools for linking curriculum to US state and other country standards. (Tagging is another way to do this.) 19:54:11 	I think something like this is interesting particularly regarding how to re-use chunks of books - as ameeg mentioned.. 19:54:31 <jonathan_Connexions>	Connexions will be using the Siyavula project as a foundation for building additional K-12 works - one aspect of that effort will be to identify additional curricula requirements and provide resources to help map those to our content 19:54:40 	Brilliant 19:54:55 	I guess also to identify where books are most needed? 19:54:56 <KarienBez>	would be great if we had some reference to terminology used in other curriculums, would enable repurposing 19:55:23 *	MarkHorner has quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client) 19:55:27 	One of the challenges is needing human cataloguers to match to standards - and there is work being done around automatic tagging 19:55:43 	ameeg: can you elaborate re: tagging? 19:55:46 <karen_at_k12opened>	There is extensive research and tools on this in the commercial textbook world. 19:55:54 	tagging curriculum documents... 19:56:05 <karen_at_k12opened>	@ameeg tagging curriculum by content standard codes, etc. 19:56:07 *	Anon (568ec15e@webchat.mibbit.com) has joined #okfn 19:56:15 	karen: I'm sure... 19:56:35 	syracuse university research has done automatic matching of standards across the 50 US states standards 19:56:35 <karen_at_k12opened>	It's great, because a lot of our work is already done for us. 19:56:36 <jonathan_Connexions>	Connexions has a lensing feature - organizations such as professional societies or, in this case, groups responsible for enforcing standards, can create a lens to focus in on elements in the repository that meet their defined criteria 19:56:39 *	Anon has quit 19:56:48 <Don>	Have to sign off. Thanks, all, for some great ideas. Thanks, Jonathan, for setting it up. Look forward to next time and seeing the transcript for this one. Bye. 19:56:53 	I think it would be great to have up to date curriculum documents available (preferably open :-) ) 19:57:00 	Bye Don! 19:57:08 <karen_at_k12opened>	I think the bigger task is getting teachers using OER... 19:57:10 *	Anon (~christian@host86-142-193-94.range86-142.btcentralplus.com) has joined #okfn 19:57:17 *	MarkHorner (63947b86@webchat.mibbit.com) has joined #okfn 19:57:28 <Andrew>	I have to be going too. Looking forward to reading the transcripts that I missed. Hope we can schedule another meeting like this sometime soon. Bye 19:57:41 	Thanks for popping in Andrew! 19:57:43 	is there an open set of standards for across the EU? part of LRE? 19:57:43 <Anon>	Meeting already over? 19:57:45 *	Don has quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client) 19:57:45 <jonathan_Connexions>	Different national, state, and local groups can identify works that meet their own standards and endorse them 19:57:48 <Andrew>	thanks for having me! 19:57:57 <karen_at_k12opened>	Funny, we've had some heated debates with DOEs here in the states because they copyright their standards, even prohibiting hte schools themselves from repurposing. 19:58:06 	karen: thats really interesting.. 19:58:10 *	Andrew has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.2/2008091620]) 19:58:15 <karen_at_k12opened>	Which brings up the need for awareness building at the policy making level. 19:58:19 <Mike_lifeguard>	oh, missed him 19:58:27 *	Mike_lifeguard was expecting Andrew's usual nick 19:58:27 	karen: thats partly why I phrased it 'document' 19:59:01 	Hello all, thanks for having us part of the meeting. I got to sign-off 19:59:04 	It could be interesting to have a record of curriculum esp where documents themselves can't be reproduced.. etc. 19:59:08 <JudyBaker>	why on earth would they copyright state standards if they want the standards to be followed? 19:59:12 	Looking forward for the transcripts 19:59:13 	mpal: thanks for dropping in! 19:59:14 *	mpal (~Murugan@h-66-134-40-218.snvacaid.covad.net) has left #okfn 19:59:20 *	Anon (~christian@host86-142-193-94.range86-142.btcentralplus.com) has left #okfn 19:59:27 <karen_at_k12opened>	@JudyBaker Stupidity? 19:59:31 	copyright: because that's how publishers make $$ 19:59:33 	:-) 19:59:50 <JudyBaker>	self-defeating and self-serving 19:59:53 	jonathan_Connexions, lenses look very interesting, is there support for annotation? 20:00:03 <KarienBez>	re Copyright: also because they don;t actually stop and think about it 20:00:05 	the US standards DB is avail. for use for non-profits 20:00:19 <JudyBaker>	Unfortunately the Connexions lens is ONLY for content posted to Connexions 20:00:20 	ameeg: do you have URL? 20:00:22 <jonathan_Connexions>	Lens owners can add comments and tags to content they've included 20:00:37 <karen_at_k12opened>	Good point, Karien. Many people really don't understand or know about open as an option. 20:00:56 	jwyg: will find it 20:01:03 <jonathan_Connexions>	So others viewing that lens can see what the lens creator found important along with the author's own description 20:01:12 *	ameeg has quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client) 20:01:25 <karen_at_k12opened>	jwyg, it's oercommons.org 20:01:44 <KarienBez>	copyright owners don't understand that protecting your rights is a big and often costly responsibility. 20:01:49 *	ameeg (456e70f1@webchat.mibbit.com) has joined #okfn 20:02:13 <JudyBaker>	I need to go in a sec. Where will transcript be posted? 20:02:19 	jonathan_Connexions, that sounds great, is there any way to export or import those comments and tags? 20:02:26 <KarienBez>	and they don't see the full implication for their intended users 20:02:30 	JudyBaker: at http://okfn.org/wiki/opentextbooks 20:02:35 	Here is the US standards db: http://www.jesandco.org/ASN/default.asp 20:03:21 	ameeg: thanks! 20:03:51 <jonathan_Connexions>	mikechalen: importing and exporting? 20:04:16 <jonathan_Connexions>	(oops, forgive the typo in the name . . . ) 20:04:35 	Save agenda items for next time?: tools, training, marketing plan 20:04:49 <karen_at_k12opened>	Since we're losing people, shall we talk about next meeting? 20:04:54 	yep.. sure 20:05:00 	I think an hour is a good length.. 20:05:03 	ameeg: how are items added to the agenda? 20:05:14 <karen_at_k12opened>	I think so to. jwyg, are you willing to keep chairing these? 20:05:20 	We are able to send a feed of all tags and reviews created in OER Commons, fyi 20:05:20 	the wiki page can be edited.. 20:05:24 *	nicole has quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client) 20:05:29 	karen: if others are happy with this... 20:05:41 <jonathan_Connexions>	mikechelen: Feel free to send me an email (jonathan.emmons@cnx.org) and we can follow up on this - I'd like to hear what it is you're looking for as far as features 20:05:45 <karen_at_k12opened>	I would be happy with that. I think a strong moderator is key to keeping these productive. 20:05:47 	we could talk about teleconferencing, but i think that naturally limits the number of people 20:05:49 	jonathan_Connexions, yes because tags or comments are form of annotation, if they are stored in a standardized format then that valuable data is easier to reuse and share, it might lead to more compatibility with other text book repositories and systems 20:06:01 	We point to items in CNX for instance and can provide OAI or RSS of user-created metadata (tags, reviews) for those items 20:06:02 	jonathan_Connexions, will do, ill try to find some good examples 20:06:07 *	Rick_GTP has quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client) 20:06:16 <karen_at_k12opened>	I like chat...with this many people, it's probably most productive. 20:06:40 	karen: also easy to keep a log so others can search + catch up.. harder with skype or telephones... 20:06:52 	ameeg: how are items added to the agenda? 20:07:06 	allenm: wiki page can be edited... 20:07:16 	you can send to jwyg, yes? 20:07:17 	http://okfn.org/wiki/opentextbooks?action=edit&editor=gui 20:07:24 <mib_9pubxh>	<Sanford> Suggestion for next time: 1) What are the *goals* of *users* and creators of open content; this feeds into marketing, usability and awareness 20:07:35 <karen_at_k12opened>	I'd suggest http://okfn.org/wiki/opentextbooks as a central place for this group for now. 20:07:45 	great.. 20:07:48 <karen_at_k12opened>	Thanks, jwyg, for facilitating and providing this space. 20:07:50 <KarienBez>	chat works for me, but we need to focus on one or two topics at a time 20:08:03 	so how regularly would be good for people? 20:08:07 	monthly? 20:08:14 	and is the time alright? 20:08:19 	for around an hour? 20:08:24 <karen_at_k12opened>	monthly for 1 hour...limit discussion to 3 topics per month. 20:08:26 	Karien: agreed 20:08:34 	ok.. 20:08:37 	monthly is good, time is good, thanks. limited topics 20:08:41 <jonathan_Connexions>	Perhaps suggestions to folks to keep crosstalk to a minimum when on an agenda item? It was difficult at times to tell where the discussion was WRT the agenda? 20:08:45 	what about last monday of the month at same time for 1 hour? 20:08:51 <karen_at_k12opened>	in between calls, we can work on followup action items. I "pledge" to outline a marketing plan for others to edit at will. 20:09:02 	s 20:09:05 <jonathan_Connexions>	The eternal tradeoff between phones and chats. . . some people type faster. :) 20:09:09 	:-) 20:09:22 	agreed, jwyg 20:09:24 	we usually use ACTION: to indicate items to be done, 20:09:41 <karen_at_k12opened>	jwyg, perfect. 20:09:44 	great... 20:10:05 	i think if we find a good way to stick on-topic they could be quite useful... 20:11:02 <karen_at_k12opened>	This is exactly the same problem we often experience with collaborative content development :) 20:11:44 <KarienBez>	:) 20:12:14 <MarkHorner>	we get to practice what we preach ;) 20:12:19 	so perhaps a good format would be if whoever proposes an agenda item says a few things about it in the meeting? 20:12:25 	ameeg, can you link me to a description of this? - Re: We point to items in CNX for instance and can provide OAI or RSS 20:12:48 	i'll try and make a few notes about the meeting format so we can link to on wiki page and don't have to re-iterate every time.. 20:12:59 <karen_at_k12opened>	jwyg, sounds good. It would be nice if people could fork side conversations. Is there a way to do this? 20:13:22 	hmm... 20:13:38 	either.. direct message, or cross-talk? 20:13:43 <jonathan_Connexions>	We could suggest private chats, but would need for folks to come back to the group if new ideas emerge worth pursuing 20:13:46 	mikechelen, you may need reach me on that... 20:14:00 	also, i guess things can be followed up via email.. 20:14:07 *	Morrell (95a97d8a@webchat.mibbit.com) has left #okfn 20:14:18 	i think one of the main purposes of meeting is to encourage ongoing collaborations... 20:14:19 	ameeg, okay thanks 20:14:26 <KarienBez>	hmm, side chats are distracting 20:14:47 <KarienBez>	takes folks away from the main conversation 20:14:49 <karen_at_k12opened>	direct messaging sounds right to me. Otherwise, someone (all of us?) just need to be more assertive about telling people to cease side conversations in the public chat. 20:15:14 	karen: agreed 20:15:14 <karen_at_k12opened>	Perhaps a few "chat rules" could be put up on the agenda page at http://okfn.org/wiki/opentextbooks. 20:15:30 	good idea.. 20:15:48 	alright.. 20:16:27 	regarding collaboration, we've perhaps got pledgebank pledges, depending on how that goes... 20:16:32 	and also things like http://www.okfn.org/wiki/olai/opentextbook 20:16:33 <MarkHorner>	cheers all - see you all at the next meeting 20:16:36 *	MarkHorner has quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client) 20:16:40 	contacting existing authors... 20:16:42 	the pledges are a great idea - and tag them! 20:16:42 <jonathan_Connexions>	Bye Mark 20:16:43 <karen_at_k12opened>	Perhaps someone could sign on as "moderator" and moderate more aggressively. (That might be more comfortable than asking jwyg to do it.) 20:17:00 <karen_at_k12opened>	I've enjoyed it, everyone. See you next time. 20:17:16 <KarienBez>	great. thanks all. chat again on 27 Oct? 20:17:19 <mib_9pubxh>	<Sanford> Thanks, Mark 20:17:34 <jonathan_Connexions>	Maybe 'closed' times for outlining agenda items, 'input' times for folks to take turns with ideas, and 'open' times for full discussion? 20:17:55 <jonathan_Connexions>	Might cut down on the distracting elements when trying to shape the discussion 20:18:29 	yep.. 20:18:34 <KarienBez>	great idea on providing some guidelines. so we learn as we do 20:18:36 	basically if we follow the agenda... 20:19:11 	i'll try and summarise and put note on the wiki to this effect... 20:19:17 *	Received a CTCP VERSION from mcorral 20:19:43 	a final thing it would be great to collaborate on is mirroring textbooks, as well as listing them... 20:19:44 <KarienBez>	thanks all. catch you next time. bye 20:19:53 	but we can discuss next time! 20:19:57 	bye Karien! 20:20:10 *	KarienBez has quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client) 20:20:28 	great to chat with everyone 20:20:30 *	rgrp has quit (Quit: leaving) 20:20:46 	thanks, everyone, have to run. Thanks, Jonathan. 20:20:58 	great, I should head too.. 20:21:27 *	mib_htr0de (4786eb84@webchat.mibbit.com) has joined #okfn 20:21:29 *	ameeg has quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client) 20:21:33 *	allenm has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 20:21:34 	so next meeting Monday 27th October... 20:22:01 <jonathan_Connexions>	Sounds good. I'll see everybody then 20:22:55 *	tarkowski (d44c25ba@webchat.mibbit.com) has joined #okfn 20:23:01 *	jonathan_Connexions has quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client) 20:24:06 *	emerika has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 20:24:58 	I think weekends would be better for meetings, at least for teachers...this was held at 1pm eastern time, which is when a lot of people are teaching 20:25:06 	jwyg, did you want to talk about making an open textbook friendfeed room? 20:25:50 	mikechelen: that sounds like a great idea.. 20:26:10 	mikechelen: would you be interested in looking into setting one up? 20:26:42 	mccorral: hmm.. this is true... 20:26:43 	jwyg, its easy, i'll do it right now, then people can contribute feeds whenever they like 20:26:59 	mikechelen: is it easy for others to add feeds? 20:27:19 	http://friendfeed.com/rooms/opentextbooks ? 20:27:29 	mikechelen: sounds great! 20:27:51 	mikechelen: this would be the best way to aggregate updates, etc. 20:27:58 	jwyg, yes in my opinion, the room can be set as open to allow anyone to contribute 20:27:59 	rather than replicating at start of meeting... 20:28:06 	mike: sounds great 20:28:28 	jwyg: I joined this late, so I don't know how many instructors there are here... 20:28:36 	it seems like a good low-cost quick way to do it! 20:29:19 	but getting instructors involved in this would hopefully be an important goal 20:29:25 	mcorral: absolutely... 20:29:49 	mccorral: initially time was chosen by amee and i as time that worked with bst/cest/pst time zones.. 20:30:11 	jwyg, ok done: http://friendfeed.com/rooms/opentextbooks 20:30:18 	mike: great! 20:30:24 	added http://creativecommons.org/category/cclearn/feed/ to kick things off :) 20:30:25 	Hi folks - I was just lurking, but thought I'd say hi... 20:30:51 	hello :) 20:31:11 	:) 20:31:31 	Interested in textbooks, but it's not what I'm really working on, so didn't have much to contribute. 20:32:22 	mcorral: what time do you think would be best for instructors? 20:32:23 	interested in engaging the academic community in creation of content - for example at Appropedia.org - so that's something that could become material for textbooks down the track. 20:32:47 	I joined at around 1:47 EST, so I must have missed all the talk about textbooks 20:33:15 	mcorral: i can send you txt file with all the discussion 20:33:50 *	tarkowski has quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client) 20:34:11 *	mib_htr0de has quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client) 20:34:25 	jwyg: well, a weekend day at the same time (1pm EST) would be good...I just think weekdays are going to be tough unless it's at night 20:36:14 	jwyg: it seems that you can help me and alek with one task 20:36:31 	we are trying to map european OER projects 20:36:38 	chriswaterguy, that looks interesting 20:36:49 	mcorral, there should be a transcript posted soon 20:36:51 	mcorral: transcript is up at http://okfn.org/wiki/opentextbooks 20:36:56 	:-) 20:37:09 	jaroslaw: interesting! 20:37:17 	how are you doing this? 20:37:58 *	sub (~ultimatum@lgp44-2-82-224-251-155.fbx.proxad.net) has left #okfn 20:38:02 	we will probably try to organize european OER meeting in the future 20:38:08 	hmm... 20:38:14 	well, we just started :-) 20:38:14 	interesting! 20:38:41 	i wonder if this would be appropriate for COMMUNIA? 20:38:55 	right now i'm trying to collect key organisations, projects and people 20:38:57 *	mcorral reading the transcript... 20:39:22 	mcorral.. perhaps we could have another 'themed' meeting specifically for instructors? 20:39:23 	jwyg: it IS appriopriate for communia, Alek filled this as a proposal for communia meeting 20:39:53 	ah of course! 20:40:09 	he was on his honeymoon travel, so couldn't update me 20:40:23 	we are expecting answer from communia soon 20:40:34 	but this is something you want to do anyway 20:40:52 	true! 20:40:59 	we should definitely work together on this... 20:41:03 	yes 20:41:16 	i wonder if you could post details on okfn-discuss? 20:41:31 	jaroslaw: we also should have synced more re: proposals.. 20:41:44 	pro & i didn't know PL group was also submitting.. 20:42:36 	jwyg: oh you submitted one too? 20:43:14 	jaroslaw: yep.. 20:43:26 *	SteveFoerster has quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client) 20:43:39 	jaroslaw: anyhow, we should make sure and keep in touch more about this stuff next time.. 20:43:41 *	karen_at_k12opened has quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client) 20:43:43 	well this is why such a meetings are good thing 20:43:51 	jaroslaw: exactly :-) 20:43:55 	jwyg: you mean separate meetings for instructors? 20:44:08 	jwyg: do you have such a map? 20:44:44 	mcorral: no.. but perhaps e.g. meetings to work on specific projects. 20:44:54 	like half day events... 20:44:56 	or do you know where should i look for informations? 20:45:01 	hmm... 20:45:12 	jaroslaw: for info on OERs in europe? 20:46:02 	mcorral: i agree with you about times.. perhaps we could bring it up next time? 20:46:15 	jwyg: yes 20:46:16 	jwyg: ok 20:46:45 	jwyg: or you can point me to resources where i can start digging 20:46:54 	mcorral: i definitely agree that this is crucial for getting momentum with open textbook creation! :-) 20:46:56 	and collecting information into the table 20:47:24 	jaroslaw: peter suber + leslie chan are working in this area... 20:47:58 	specifically for open access. 20:48:06 	erik duval would be a good person to contact.. 20:48:08 	jwyg: I noticed that Rob Beezer is here, he's the only author that I can see was here 20:48:15 	in fact he's probably best place to start.. 20:48:37 	mcorral: its true! RobBeezer are you there? 20:48:50 	I was interested in hearing how open textbook authors go about getting their books adopted at various schools 20:49:10 	mcorral - exactly.. i think this needs to be a focus next time.. 20:49:35 	at the college level, which is what I'm working in, there are a lot of hurdles to overcome 20:49:35 	i like the pledgebank idea for instructors.. 20:49:58 	mcorral.. it would be really interesting to write a short piece on what these are! 20:50:06 	jwyg: open access is probably too wide 20:50:10 	mcorral - do you know of anything like this.. 20:50:22 	we need strict OER projects and people 20:50:39 	jwyg: well, just my own limited experiences 20:50:50 	jaroslaw: erik duval is working on ARIADNE - http://www.ariadne-eu.org/ 20:50:56 <Mike_lifeguard>	mcorral: I'm interested in that question as well. 20:51:14 	mcorral: it could be really interesting for other teachers to share experiences on this.. 20:51:16 <Mike_lifeguard>	In my first semester, the chem profs were so horrified at their textbooks options they wrote their own 20:51:28 	prima facie i don't imagine its something much talked about with school teachers? 20:51:29 <Mike_lifeguard>	so that seems to be a sign that its not hopeless! 20:51:30 	but that topic seems to me to be pretty important, otherwise all these great ideas will go nowhere 20:51:40 	Mike_lifeguard: interesting! 20:51:59 <Mike_lifeguard>	it turned out to be an excellent book - matched the course perfectly 20:52:10 	Mike_lifeguard: do you have URL? 20:52:13 	and then there is the matter of getting more people to actually write these textbooks, and finding the subjects where it's most feasible 20:52:19 <Mike_lifeguard>	oh, it's printed, not online 20:52:30 	mcorral: this is why i raised pledgebank... 20:52:36 <Mike_lifeguard>	freely-licensing that is probably a good idea. Perhaps I'll ask them about it 20:52:45 	Mike_lifeguard: that would be brilliant! 20:53:18 	Mike_lifeguard: I'd love to hear how it goes if you ask. We would be happy to host it if you need a home... 20:53:32 	mcorral: what do you think of the pledge idea? 20:53:40 <Mike_lifeguard>	well if I can get it GFDL, Wikibooks would host it :) 20:54:05 	looking at the transcript, it doesn't seem the pledgebank idea was discussed much 20:54:08 	Mike_lifeguard: that would be brilliant... 20:54:54 	mcorral: trying to circulate pledge among instructors, e.g. 'i will contribute to a textbook for k12 math students if 100 others do the same'... 20:55:19 	or i will contribute 5 hours ... 20:55:20 	etc. 20:56:03 	or even, 'i will use an open textbook in my class if X do the same..' 20:56:08 	jwyg thanks i will use it 20:56:09 	Mike_lifeguard, that is a good idea, there was discussion earlier about contacting existing authors to inform them about the importance of open licensing 20:56:38 <Mike_lifeguard>	some ready-made materials for that would be useful... 20:56:41 	jaroslaw: definitely email the okfn-discuss list and i will get back to in more detail when i get time! 20:56:49 	jwyg: well, that seems a little too voluntaristic to me...I think creating a consortium of existing and potential authors to go through all this would be better 20:56:52 	jaroslaw: i will have a think... 20:56:54 <Mike_lifeguard>	someone should write a history of the free content movement at Wikibooks... 20:57:20 	mcorral: that is a great idea... 20:58:22 	the problem is that each school has its own methods for selecting textbooks...often there is no choice in the matter, when certain departments mandate a certain book for certain classes 20:58:30 	Mike_lifeguard: see http://okfn.org/wiki/olai/opentextbook 20:59:03 <Mike_lifeguard>	*bookmark!* 20:59:21 	mcorral: do you ever write about this? i'd love to hear a personal account of what obstacles there are at schools in the US 20:59:33 	as i'm sure lots of other people would! 20:59:36 	i just think that has to be taken into account when new textbooks are created... 20:59:47 	mcorral.. 21:00:04 	i agree about consortium of open textbook authors.. this is a great idea.. 21:00:36 	so I made a concerted effort with my textbook (Vector Calculus) to make it as "compatible" as possible with the existing textbook for that subject which was used at my school 21:01:01 	thats precisely why i raised this issue of looking at curricula.. 21:01:20 	and documenting the differences/similarities between curricula in different places.. 21:01:35 	its really vital for textbook creation, i guess? 21:01:57 	I think that this compatibility should be the main goal now, with changing the curricula being a battle to fought later 21:02:10 	nods.. 21:02:41 	but having a good place to compare curriculum is presumably key to re-using textbooks written for different purposes... 21:02:56 	if the open texts can't be used essentially as drop-in replacements for the existing texts, then I don't think this is going anywhere 21:03:05 	i.e. if there are strong curriculum overlaps, then there may be more re-usable content... 21:03:06 *	Sanford has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 21:03:07 *	mib_9pubxh has quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client) 21:03:21 	mcorral: agreed.. 21:03:40 	hence the focus on national/state standards, etc... 21:04:10 	jwyg: sure, there is bound to be overlap...which will likely mean that each subject will probably need several books to cover all the possibilities 21:04:24 	exactly.. 21:04:44 	also curricula change, so its good to be clear about which bits of textbooks need to be updated accordingly.. 21:05:15 	jwyg: the problem is that, at least in the US at the college, there are often no such standards...it's very much decided per school most of the time 21:05:22 	ah.. interesting.. 21:05:40 	in the UK there's a very strong emphasis on a national curriculum 21:05:42 	my feeling is that european schools are more centralized 21:05:52 	jwyg: that's what I figured 21:05:55 	thats really interesting.. 21:06:11 	it's almost totally noncentralized here 21:06:22 	thats why i think it would be interesting to document what standards are in different countries.. 21:06:31 	interesting.. 21:07:03 	but for e.g. passing standard exams it must be fairly standardised? 21:07:09 	some community college districts have standards, but even there you will often find differences 21:07:20 	jwyg: there are no standard exams in the US 21:07:21 	interesting.. 21:07:35 	it's a free-for-all here :) 21:07:35 	mcorral: even on a statewide level? 21:07:44 	SATs? 21:07:50 	jwyg: yep...I know, it's crazy 21:08:09 	not everyone uses the SAT 21:08:16 	ok right.. :-) 21:08:31 	i've got some catching up to do on the ins and outs of US education system :-) 21:08:50 	there is also the ACT 21:09:08 	SATs are prior to college, and test very broad subjects like grammar, reading comprehension, and algebra 21:09:12 	but those exams are used just for college admissions 21:09:35 	it would actually be a good place for open source textbooks though, because tons of kids get stuck paying for expensive commercial test prep books 21:10:02 	mikechelen: true, but there are already some free exam guides for those 21:10:20 	interesting.. 21:10:32 	it's the college textbooks that are the big problem 21:11:11 	anyhow.. i really better shoot.. 21:11:36 	some colleges let instructors pick their books, some don't...and it often varies by department 21:11:39 	mcorral: will you be able to make it to next meeting on 27th Oct? 21:11:47 	jwyg: I'll try 21:12:12 	mcorral: great! it was good to chat with you a bit anyhow! 21:12:46 	jwyg: same here...glad to see you're using Linux :) 21:13:04 	mcorral: and again, i think it would be really valuable for others to hear your experiences about creating and getting open textbooks adopted 21:13:15 	I was wondering if I'm the only one using an actual IRC client :) 21:13:20 	mcorral: :-) 21:14:43 	hopefully more authors will show up for the next meeting 21:15:43 	mcorral: absolutely 21:15:53 	mcorral: do you have my email address? 21:16:11 	no 21:16:20 	mcorral: it would be great to ping a few ideas back and forth about this in general! 21:16:32 	sure 21:16:32 	its my name (jonathan gray) at okfn dot org 21:16:35 <Mike_lifeguard>	standardized exams are BS anyways - nobody should train people to pass tests rather than teach them 21:16:46 	jwyg: ok 21:17:05 	Mike_lifeguard: agreed 21:17:07 <Mike_lifeguard>	this is especially a problem in the UK, apparently, though Ontario is moving in that direction significantly 21:17:27 	Mike_lifeguard: nods 21:18:03 *	mikechelen has quit (Ping timeout: 480 seconds) 21:19:08 	jwyg: my email is mcorral at schoolcraft dot edu 21:20:04 	my feeling now is that there are slightly different goals in the US than in europe and elsewhere 21:20:51 	nods... 21:20:58 <Mike_lifeguard>	marginally relevant: http://failblog.org/2008/09/26/investigation-fail/ 21:21:01 	alright.. i better head.. 21:21:11 	good to talk to everyone! 21:21:12 *	mcorral needs to leave also 21:21:15 	bye 21:21:23 *	mikechelen (~mike@tor-irc.dnsbl.oftc.net) has joined #okfn 21:21:23 	mcorral i just popped you an email... 21:21:30 	ok 21:21:40 	over and out! 21:21:41 *	mikechelen kicks computer 21:22:01 	has anyone made an open source SAT or ACT test prep book? 21:22:08 *	mcorral (~mcorral@c-69-246-119-249.hsd1.mi.comcast.net) has left #okfn (off to teach...) 21:24:29 <Mike_lifeguard>	mikechelen: http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/ACT ? 21:24:44 <Mike_lifeguard>	http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/SAT_Study_Guide 21:26:08 	Mike_lifeguard, cool thanks, looks pretty sparse but a good place to start 21:26:19 <Mike_lifeguard>	yeah, they are 21:26:29 <Mike_lifeguard>	in fact, most of our books are 21:26:54 <Mike_lifeguard>	we need more contributors, really 21:28:28 	ill see if there is something i can add, the test prep companies charge so much for books and classes, this would be a cool thing to cover 21:34:31 	if there are other open publications on the same subject, it might be possible to combine their contents 21:36:48 <Mike_lifeguard>	hmm, that's a possibility 21:36:56 <Mike_lifeguard>	It'd have to be GFDL for compatibility though 21:38:11 	do you know which CC licenses are compatible with GFDL? 21:38:26 <Mike_lifeguard>	none (yet) 21:39:02 <Mike_lifeguard>	supposedly they are working on a deal to make GFDL & CC-by-sa compatible, which will let WMF wikis (presumably) switch, and all will be right with the world 21:40:50 	hmm i get confused with what compatible means, like CC-BY images are often used on Wikipedia 21:41:19 <Mike_lifeguard>	right, but that is slightly different, having to do with derivative works 21:43:03 	the details elude me a bit, would it be okay to include CC-BY material in Wikibooks? 21:43:50 <Mike_lifeguard>	I'm not sure, let me think a minute... 21:45:18 <Mike_lifeguard>	I think so. But since there's no sharealike clause, it'd just get moved over to GFDL when the next person edits 21:45:35 <Mike_lifeguard>	but I'd want to re-read the text before saying that with any certainty 21:46:58 	if there were a guide for ways to reuse content, it might help people get involved 21:47:26 <Mike_lifeguard>	it would 21:47:45 <Mike_lifeguard>	we generally don't like the GFDL because it is so burdensome 21:48:23 	writing original content is time consuming, and people that want to contribute in some way like me could still help out effectively by find good sources and helping the info get shared 21:48:59 	it would be great if there were resolutions to all the issues, whatever the status is some guides could help 21:49:14 	im sure there are some already, might be a question of finding them 21:51:33 <Mike_lifeguard>	yeah. long-term the best solution is compatibility, not just a guide to what is compatible :) 21:51:49 <Mike_lifeguard>	the FSF-CC(-WMF) agreement is long-overdue 21:52:03 <Mike_lifeguard>	those with any weight should try to move it forward 21:55:18 	sure i'd agree, many of us who have no say in that discussion would still like to find ways to help though :) 22:05:28 *	Mike_lifeguard (~Mike_life@hlfxns0169w-142177153198.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net) has left #okfn (Mike is a four-letter word.) 22:08:52 *	Paul_Miller has quit (Quit: Paul_Miller) 22:15:28 *	jaroslawlipszyc has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 22:25:04 *	ADunn has quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client) 22:28:17 *	_sj_ (~sj_@18.85.49.41) has joined #okfn 22:28:37 <_sj_>	whoops, hung out on freenode instead... 22:30:47 *	mib_v51qn9 (4b953d31@webchat.mibbit.com) has joined #okfn 22:31:39 *	jgay (~jgay@pool-96-237-71-200.bstnma.east.verizon.net) has joined #okfn 22:31:59 	jwyg: howdie 22:32:28 	jgay: hey! :-) 22:32:51 	jwyg: did you see textbookrevolution.org all relaunched? 22:33:01 	no.. hang on.. 22:33:10 *	mib_v51qn9 has quit 22:33:20 *	ADunn (4b953d31@webchat.mibbit.com) has joined #okfn 22:34:31 	jwyg: you can browse by license and edit pages through forms (e.g., http://textbookrevolution.org/index.php?title=Medline_Plus_Reference_Books&action=formedit) 22:37:27 	brilliant! :-) 22:37:36 	how exciting... 22:38:29 	we should definitely blog this.. 22:38:48 	have you announced it anywhere? i haven't checked my feeds yet... 22:39:09 	no, not really 22:39:20 	so, I think I missed the meeting -- I thought it was tonight 22:39:36 	I had down 7PM EST on my calendar 22:39:49 	no no.. it was 1800 BST, 1900 CEST 22:40:06 	right, I mixed up CEST and EST 22:40:17 	oh no! .. sorry to hear 22:40:27 	no big deal 22:40:36 	transcript is here 22:40:38 	http://okfn.org/wiki/opentextbooks 22:40:52 	I was hoping to let everyone on the channel know about the relaunch, haha 22:41:07 	we should synch up efforts on textbook stuff anyhow! 22:41:27 	well i'll blog tomorrow.. do you have any kind of launch blurb? 22:42:02 	i guess i could just quote front page on wiki 22:42:39 	another thing to mention is our discussion with TBR, OKF, Light + Matter and others to share/synch metadata... 22:43:30 	we have RDF feeds for books 22:43:38 	hopefully I'll be adding in a place for reviews in the RDF feeds 22:43:44 	then RDF feed by category, too 22:43:45 	brilliant 22:43:49 	do you have url? 22:44:06 	so today is official relaunch? 22:44:11 *	chriswaterguy has quit (Ping timeout: 480 seconds) 22:44:13 	its ok to announce? 22:44:18 	there is an RDF feed on every page 22:44:22 	yeah, announce all you'd like :-) 22:44:26 	jwyg, here is a google calendar of the scheduled meetings, might help with timezone questions: http://tinyurl.com/4ypau3 22:44:28 	I was going to do a press release, but I've been so busy 22:44:51 	mikechelen: thanks 22:45:02 	mikechelen: fantastic! 22:45:23 	jgay: of course.. :-) 22:45:35 	jwyg: scroll to the bottom of a book review page, like this: http://textbookrevolution.org/index.php/Version_Control_with_Subversion 22:45:52 	brilliant... 22:45:53 	you'll notice: "Facts about Version Control with SubversionRDF feed 22:45:53 	" 22:45:58 	nods.. 22:45:58 	click on the RDF Feed 22:45:59 	jgay, textbookrevolution looks really nice, how do you add a new book? 22:46:01 	ok.. 22:46:14 	http://textbookrevolution.org/index.php/Form:Book 22:46:16 	jgay: is there anything else in particular you'd like me to mention? 22:47:11 	jwyg: tell people to create accounts and to fill out their user profile. Everything is form-based, so it's easy. Check out my FOAF info and stuff at the bottom of my profile: http://textbookrevolution.org/index.php/User:Jgay 22:47:56 	jgay, thanks, is there some link that is supposed to be followed to get the book creation form? 22:47:57 	when I click edit, it does an edit by form -- so I can just fill out all the form data 22:48:14 	mikechelen: http://textbookrevolution.org/index.php/Form:Book 22:48:44 	jgay, yeah i meant, is there some way people are supposed to find that link? 22:48:49 	_sj_: how's it going sj? 22:49:31 	mikechelen: it's on the front page in a few spots. I'll try to add something more prominent 22:49:45 	under getting started on front page... 22:50:03 *	Christopher_Olah (63e724db@webchat.mibbit.com) has joined #okfn 22:50:52 <Christopher_Olah>	Sorry, I had to go to class around 1:45, is the meeting still going? 22:50:57 	jgay, oh i see it there now, maybe somewhere on the navigation sidebar would be helpful
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22:52:10 	Christopher_Olah, not really, but there are still a few people here talking 22:52:58 	jgay, this is cool, i just started messing around with SMW myself, and i like what you have done here, the form based entried can be worlds easier for most users 22:53:05 	Christopher_Olah: there's a transcript at http://okfn.org/wiki/opentextbooks 22:53:12 	mikechelen: I added a new sidebar item, how does it look? 22:53:45 	is there any way to search by topic and license? to a list, for example, of all public domain biology textbooks? 22:54:31 	mikechelen: You can do that. I haven't figured out how to do it in the serach bar 22:55:22 	jgay, that looks great, it was definitely easy to find from the main page, but once people start browsing content they don't always think to look at the first page 22:55:28 	mikechelen: it would be nice to sort by license and list instead of license or list. Here is the PD list http://textbookrevolution.org/index.php/Subjects/PD -- you could add subject as a column and then sort by that 22:55:51 	mikechelen: right, there is definitely a lot of work to make the site more user friendly. It needs help. 22:55:53 	an dlove 22:55:55 	*love 22:56:18 	=) 22:56:42 	jgay, oh yeah that is a good way to do it, also the subject listings are very helpful 22:58:21 	maybe a column for open license yes/no would help to arrange entries, although i really like the specific license info as well :) 23:01:46 *	Christopher_Olah has quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client) 23:02:02 *	Christopher_Olah (63e724db@webchat.mibbit.com) has joined #okfn 23:02:21 <Christopher_Olah>	Did anyone see my last few comments? 23:03:33 *	Christopher_Olah has quit 23:03:52 	dang i was just typing a response to him 23:05:23 	mikechelen: I've been having trouble deciding what an open/free license is. Like, I can't decide if CC NC is free/open 23:06:28 	jgay, yeah just thinking about that, there is for example the OKFN open knowledge definition http://opendefinition.org/ but not everyone necessarily agrees with that 23:07:04 	mikechelen: I figured it's easier to just say what the license is and what freedoms that carries to the user. 23:08:27 	jgay, that's probably right, im just thinking if there is some way a user could search for all books that are pd, cc-by, or cc-by-sa for example 23:09:48 	mikechelen: the 'books by license' sidebar list is useful 23:11:05 	jgay, yup i like that feature a lot 23:11:15 	mikechelen: Did my server just crash? 23:11:33 	jgay, it seems like it D: 23:11:53 	mikechelen: hmph. It looks bad. I can't ssh to the server. 23:11:59 	looks like it came down. 23:12:24 	jgay, yikes thats not good, what kind of hosting do you have? 23:13:01 	mikechelen: It's a Xen instance on a good collocated machine 23:13:13 	but, we are migrating from one collo place to another, so maybe something happened 23:13:14 *	Chris_Olah (63e724db@webchat.mibbit.com) has joined #okfn 23:13:52 	jgay, hmm, can you reboot the instance? or check with the host, maybe it is scheduled downtime for the move 23:14:13 	mikechelen: it's not scheduled until the 1st. I'll call him :-) 23:15:06 	jgay, oh well, thats unlikely then :D 23:15:12 	sorry that sounds like a pain :/ 23:15:47 	maybe a hosted wiki like http://referata.com would be a good solution 23:16:01 <Chris_Olah>	Ther seems to be some sort of problem where my comments after the first don't get seen. I participated in the original meeting for the first 45 minutes and no one responded. I presumed my comments were being ignored because I was I highschool student and the other people were more important. But I'm not in the transcript. Aditionaly, it happened a second time just now. Could someone shed light on this? I'm using Mibbit because I'm working off a DSL CD 23:17:19 	Chris_Olah, saw your recent comments, did you see the responses? 23:18:02 	mibbit should work fine, several people have been using it, the official meeting ended before your first comment (that i saw) "Christopher_Olah> Sorry, I had to go to class around 1:45, is the meeting still going?" 23:18:07 	Chris_Olah: that is odd that your comments were not being recieved but you were recieving them -- I've never heard of that on IRC. 23:19:31 *	rekrutacja (~rekrutacj@77-253-209-12.ip.netia.com.pl) has joined #okfn 23:19:42 	maybe his internet connection is having troubles? 23:19:57 *	rekrutacja is now known as jaroslaw 23:20:05 	hello _sj_ 23:20:08 	how are you? 23:22:39 *	Chris_Olah has quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client) 23:22:47 *	chris_olah (63e724db@webchat.mibbit.com) has joined #okfn 23:23:00 *	chris_olah has quit (Remote host closed the connection) 23:23:38 *	chris_olah (63e724db@webchat.mibbit.com) has joined #okfn 23:23:50 *	chris_olah has quit (Remote host closed the connection) 23:24:11 *	chris_olah (63e724db@webchat.mibbit.com) has joined #okfn 23:24:35 <chris_olah>	After doing the text dump, I was kicked off the cannel... 23:25:06 <_sj_>	hiya jaroslaw ! 23:25:09 <_sj_>	good thank you 23:25:24 <_sj_>	jwyg, greetings (: 23:30:59 *	ADunn has quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client) 23:31:12 *	chris_olah has quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client) 23:44:22 *	jaroslaw has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) Sep 30 00:22:06 *	mchelen (~mike@tor-irc.dnsbl.oftc.net) has joined #okfn Sep 30 00:29:12 *	mikechelen has quit (Ping timeout: 480 seconds) Sep 30 00:44:29 *	jgay has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) Sep 30 11:09:01 *	Disconnected (Connection timed out).