Meetings/2008-09-24

= Meeting 2008-09-24 =

Details

 * When: Wednesday 24th September 2008 from 1830 BST (1730 GMT)
 * Where: #okfn irc channel on oftc.net (connect via Mibbit)

Agenda
Please feel free to add anything you'd like to discuss to the agenda...


 * Jonathan: updates on autumn events + virtual workshops
 * CKAN
 * Cofundos for open knowledge?

Participants
List of participants will go here

IRC Log
IRC log will go here

(Time in CEST)

#!irc 19:31:33 	Hello! 19:31:48 	Who's here? 19:32:30 	I'm here 19:32:32 	I'm alive! 19:32:49 	Hey robnyers, hey Richard Franks! 19:33:20 *	rgrp (~rgrp@cpc3-cmbg6-0-0-cust206.cmbg.cable.ntl.com) has joined #okfn 19:33:48 	Hey rgrp! 19:34:06 	hi jwyg 19:34:09 	how are you doing 19:34:12 	Richard_Franks: what are you mostly interested in vis a vis open knowledge stuff? 19:34:26 	rgrp: fine! pretty tired but good.. :-) 19:35:46 	robmyers: hows it going? 19:35:58 	Lurking mostly :-) I'm here as a member of the metagovernment mailing list ( http://www.metagovernment.org ) -- we're having a few discussions about whether to move from CC by-nc-sa to something less restrictive.. so it was suggested that someone show up to this meeting and seek guidance if that's the sort of thing which interests the okfn 19:35:59 	Good, thanks. 19:36:23 	BY-SA is good without NC. 19:36:27 	yes 19:36:36 	what was the motivation for using the nc restriction? 19:36:53 	I'm honestly not sure.. reflex perhaps? 19:37:11 	interesting.. it would if the project switched to something OKD compliant! 19:37:25 	*it would be great... 19:37:29 	Looking at what you guys do I'd suggest that simple by-sa or even by would be sufficient 19:37:31 	It's natural to want to protect things to start with. 19:37:37 	Yes 19:38:32 	I was trying to push for public domain - but reading the definition 1.0 -- without the optional integrity and attribution clauses -- they appear to be functionally (although not symbollically) similar 19:38:34 	is that correct? 19:39:37 	By is roughly similar to PD in terms of what you can do. 19:39:40 	By 'they' you mean something that is OKD compliant and something that is PD? 19:39:40 	Public Domain is OKD compliant 19:39:58 	jwyg - yes 19:40:10 	PD is subset of open knowledge 19:40:28 	CC are working on a better PD dedication-type system aren't they? 19:40:43 	There's also Jordan's PDDL 19:41:01 	http://www.opendatacommons.org/odc-public-domain-dedication-and-licence/ 19:41:43 	though that is oriented to data 19:41:50 	yes 19:41:54 	nods 19:41:56 	CCZero might be more appropriate for metagovernment 19:42:03 	Yes 19:42:21 	whatever the case it seems you do want to drop the nc condition -- even if you don't go all the way to PD 19:42:22 	It's like PD and designed to work in countries where the PD is a problem. 19:42:29 	(we were having entertaining discussions trying to figure out what CC mean by non-commercial :-) ) 19:43:15 	Yes it's the most discussed topic on the cc-discuss list. there are at least two competing theories. 19:43:22 	Notice MG site it says: " Openness in everything 19:43:22 	All aspects of governance will be as open as possible, under the principle of radical transparency. All software and systems used to run administrations will be free, open source software and systems. " 19:43:35 	cc did do a draft position paper but it's never been finalized (as far as I remember) 19:45:21 	Richard_Franks: you may also be interested in list of compliant licenses/legal tools on opendefinition.org 19:45:22 	http://opendefinition.org/licenses 19:46:11 	thanks - how would CCZero compare to OKD without the integrity and attribution clauses - I don't see a comparison there 19:47:12 	CC0 is OKD compliant... 19:47:13 	to be clear here: OKD is not a licence but a set of principles 19:47:22 	nods 19:47:28 	a given licence (e.g. CCZero) may be compliant with OKD or it may not 19:47:49 	cczero is basically a public domain dedication with a bit more legal robustness than just saying "this work is public domain" 19:48:24 	ah - that's interesting - thanks! 19:50:15 	so basically an organisation could align with the principles of okfn, and choose a compliant license? 19:50:42 	any license can be okd compliant as long as it meets the principles.. 19:51:02 	hence much like open source/free software definition... 19:51:25 	robmyers: how is it going with openhogarth? 19:51:35 	Richard_Franks: yes exactly 19:52:07 	you can choose any compliant licence and be OKD compliant -- the definition is just a definition (not a licence) 19:53:46 	rgrp: i remember you blogged about this. i wonder whether it might be worth putting a note to this effect on the opendefinition site? 19:54:12 	jwyg There's a surprising amount of images available online. so I've been getting some practice with version control for images and thinking about how to be fair about stealing people's work. Also what no-image stuff to add. 19:54:16 	yes i think so 19:54:19 	http://blog.okfn.org/2007/10/23/the-open-definition-and-creative-commons/ 19:54:30 	but I'm assuming it's also a movement where cross-referencing between loose organisations who share common principles, in order to increase awareness, is mutually beneficial? (sorry - I didn't have too much time to research) 19:54:41 	absolutely 19:55:33 	robmyers: interesting! what have you been looking into for version contro 19:55:41 	*l with images? 19:56:41 	subversion? 19:56:44 	Richard_Franks: definitely. Did you have something particular in mind? 19:56:55 	jwyg well I assume knowledgeforge would be good. but I've been practicing with svn && git. 19:57:20 	And I'm not keen on flickr's walled garden but I've been very interested by some of the tagging projects on there. 19:58:02 	jwyg - not exactly, primarily I'm here for fact-finding - we don't have any leaders so any decisions can take a while ;-) 19:58:34 	:-) 19:59:56 	robmyers: can I put in a plug for hg/mercurial 20:00:16 	Richard_Franks: my basic suggestion is to go for CC by or by-sa 20:00:24 	(scribble, scribble) 20:00:32 	those are probably your simplest options and are fully OKD-compliant 20:01:47 	rgrp: did you see http://blog.okfn.org/2008/09/22/where-does-my-money-go/ 20:01:47 	rgrp - thanks - I like the sound of CCZero, but I'll pass it on -- incidentally, does this transcript appear online, or should I copy + paste? 20:02:17 	the transcript will appear online i believe, jwyg? 20:02:20 	Richard_Franks: it will be at http://okfn.org/wiki/meetings/ 20:02:28 	jwyg: yes i did, looks good 20:02:34 	specifically http://okfn.org/wiki/meetings/2008-09-24 20:02:37 	d'oh - thanks 20:04:11 	rgrp: I'll pop you a draft of final application tomorrow... 20:04:12 	http://form.buildingdemocracy.co.uk/application/ 20:05:05 	jwyg: please go ahead and submit (i'm a bit snowed under at present) 20:05:21 	rgrp: sure! no problem... 20:06:04 	did you have any more correspondance with the guy from computus? 20:07:14 	robmyers: are you planning to start to compilate pd images in a repository somewhere? 20:07:23 	*compile 20:07:26 	:-) 20:07:28 	yes 20:07:44 	with any lo-rez ones as placeholders that people can replace with better ones 20:07:51 	fantastic! 20:07:58 	what will be your focus initially? 20:08:12 	rgrp: not beyond the email he sent bak 20:09:09 	rgrp: nods.. i look forward to seeing what his UI is like! 20:09:13 	the well known stuff. so beer street/gin lane and the rake/harlot 20:09:31 	robmyers: sounds great! 20:09:38 	kewl 20:09:58 	robmyers: you could also pop the discuss list a note letting them know what you're up to! 20:10:03 	I intent to make credits an important part of it to hopefully avoid accusations of free riding. 20:10:06 	yes will do 20:10:26 	btw i have now registered openliterature and openmilton but have done anything on open are stuff yet 20:10:31 	what suggestsions are there for domain names 20:10:53 	openarthistory? 20:10:57 	openhogarth? 20:11:00 	ok 20:11:06 	openarthistory, openhogarth, opendurer, openimpresionism, openturner 20:11:07 	perhaps? 20:11:13 	in order of importance 20:11:15 	yes 20:11:45 	what about something more generic, like openpainting? 20:11:54 	hmm.. 20:12:31 	looks like openarthistory .net/org are free 20:12:56 	wow quite a lot 20:12:56 	openarthistory is, imo, the right emphasis. 20:13:12 	then when we get laser 3d scans of sculptures we can put those in as well ;-) 20:13:40 	about openhogarth - assuming each scan of a print has different colour balances, etc.. how do you determine which goes into the master repo - svn and git seem to default towards the idea of 'latest' or 'best' versions 20:14:12 	robmyers: agreed :-) 20:15:53 	robmyers: have you discovered any new good sources for images on web? 20:15:54 	Richard_Franks good question. The good thing about Hogarth is that the prints are mostly monochrome so it's more a problem of contrast and detail than colour. I think the project needs to accept all good faith images (so no spam or porn images retitled as Hogarth prints), then either have curators or a more social system for promoting images to 'best'. 20:16:24 	err I have some notes. but wikimedia commons seems to be best for hi-res, and archive.org best for the number of images (in book scans) 20:16:45 	robmyers: cool :-) 20:18:11 	Yeah I just need some practical momentum now. 8) 20:20:28 	would you be interested in putting this in a knowledgeforge svn repo 20:20:39 	this stuff sounds really good and it would make another nice knowledge package 20:20:57 	yes that would be ideal 20:21:06 	mercurial aside ;-) 20:22:16 	in fact we should have mercurial support in kforge soon 20:22:46 	btw microfacts is also getting closer to readiness 20:22:51 	heh 20:22:54 	oh cool 20:22:57 	here a new demo thread on shakespeare: http://www.microfacts.org/thread/read/285c428c-c5c8-4c88-b7c9-2a085ee68e64 20:23:20 	that would be brilliant for artist/work/school info 20:23:32 	rgrp: great news! 20:24:21 	absolutely 20:25:38 	robmyers: if you come across any good collections of pd/open images, it would be great to list them under http://ckan.net/tag/read/image 20:26:10 	absolutely 20:26:13 	rgrp: new microfacts thread looks great! 20:26:15 	this could be a bit of a focus 20:26:54 	uh-oh, microfacts is giving me a 503 now.. does it embed metadata such as time/places too? 20:26:57 	sure 20:27:07 	Richard_Franks: it is back up 20:27:15 	i just rebooted to get it to reload a new template 20:27:20 	try again 20:27:39 <Richard_Franks>	ah - thanks 20:28:52 <Richard_Franks>	does it (or will it) have an api to import/export thread data? 20:29:49 	it has one already 20:30:57 	http://www.microfacts.org/thread/dump/285c428c-c5c8-4c88-b7c9-2a085ee68e64 20:31:00 <Richard_Franks>	that's really awesome 20:31:05 	that dumps the thread plus related factlets as json 20:31:09 	the proper rest api is at 20:31:28 	http://www.microfacts.org/api/rest/ 20:31:35 	e.g. to get list of factlets 20:31:38 	nods.. that is great! 20:31:47 	http://www.microfacts.org/api/rest/factlet 20:35:52 	you can also now create threads 20:35:57 	+ factlets 20:36:44 	It's a good balance between formatting as human & machine usable data. 20:37:18 	yes you can actually write threads/factlets directly as json 20:37:23 	kewl 20:37:36 	brilliant! 20:37:44 	e.g shakespeare is here: http://knowledgeforge.net/microfacts/trac/browser/trunk/microfacts/data/shakespeare.js 20:37:46 	JSON is one of those technologies that someone has obviously written to use themselves. ;-) 20:38:16 	or rather simpler: http://knowledgeforge.net/microfacts/trac/browser/trunk/microfacts/data/napoleon_battles.js 20:38:23 	OK so will OKFN register some Open* art domains, and I'll set up a Knowledgeforge svn for hogarth scans? 20:38:30 	yes 20:38:35 <Richard_Franks>	are there any scope limitations - e.g. list of places + dates where an individual has eaten fish+chips? 20:38:51 	no, not really 20:38:57 	well that would be useful to sociologists, economists, novelists and nutritionists... 20:39:35 <Richard_Franks>	;-) 20:40:42 	heh 20:42:20 	looks like there may be another source of open historical information 20:42:22 	http://www.earlham.edu/~peters/fos/2008/09/announcing-wiki-based-encyclopedia-of.html 20:43:01 	there was a wikimedia proposal for an art wiki a couple of years ago but it doesn't seem to have gone anywhere. 20:44:13 	interesting i've been quietly working with people on atlas.openeconomics.net 20:44:19 	http://atlas.openeconomics.net/# 20:46:06 	not really public yet ... 20:48:53 	looks great so far! 20:49:28 	do you have e.g. of more developed entry? 20:50:11 	wow! 20:50:22 	http://atlas.openeconomics.net/Market_For_Lemons 20:51:23 	is the syntax for handling equations native in moinmoin? 20:52:08 	no have to do stuff to get taht 20:56:23 	ok i'm going to be heading off soo 20:56:29 	really good to chat with you all 20:56:32 	yes 20:56:47 	i better shoot too! 20:57:01 <Richard_Franks>	absolutely - it's been really useful and informative! 20:57:03 	its an hour later here! 20:57:14 	where are you jwyg? 20:57:19 	berlin atm 20:57:24 	oh kewl 20:58:33 	ok.. perhaps see people next wed? 20:58:37 	sure 20:58:54 	i look forward to hearing how it all goes with open art history rob! 20:59:14 	Richard - it was good to chat to you for a bit! 20:59:20 	rgrp: speak soon! 20:59:25 	slow but sure hopefully ;-) 21:00:28 	*waves* 21:01:56 	jwyg: bye bye, good to chat 21:02:07 	bye robmyers and Richard_Franks 21:02:09 	o&o 21:02:10 *	rgrp has quit (Quit: leaving) 21:02:10 	yeah good meeting. bye. 21:02:33 <Richard_Franks>	bye all!