Meetings/2007-04

= OKFN Monthly Meeting: April 2007 =

Where and When

 * When: Tuesday 2007-04-10 at 1900 BST (1800 GMT)
 * Where: #okfn irc channel on oftc.net

Agenda
If you want to add something just edit this page (see link at the bottom of the page).


 * Open Knowledge 1.0 (5 mins)
 * quick post event roundup
 * Support
 * Project updates and planning
 * public domain works (15+ mins, see below)
 * ckan.net
 * versioned domain model now working
 * could launch ckan.net as is in alpha/beta mode
 * openshakespeare
 * recent work on annotation (v0.4 now ready for release)
 * opentextbook.org
 * would be nice to do something with this
 * sysadmin issues: update on some of the problems/resolutions
 * need a backup sysadmin person for situations where rgrp is absent/away
 * AOB
 * OKF T-Shirts

Public Domain Works

 * what we have done recently
 * presentation at OKCON (Tim and Rufus)
 * website:
 * webmasters: who are they (Tim and Michael?)
 * can someone take over from rgrp in dealing with wordpress spam etc
 * need to finish sorting out copyright section
 * promoting project -- need to get clear what we need help with and then put out a call for help to likely quarters
 * coding: making progress on musicbrainz integration and data extraction but need help
 * first chunk of BBC data is up online: http://p.knowledgeforge.net/pdw/A1.txt (though v. large ~ 21MB)
 * icommons -- going there this summer (anyone check the proposal rgrp submitted?)
 * icommons and cc: get in contact and find out what is happening elsewhere

IRC Log
#!irc --- Log opened Tue Apr 10 18:58:48 2007 18:58 -!- rgrp [~rgrp@cpc3-cmbg6-0-0-cust362.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has joined #okfn 18:58 -!- Irssi: #okfn: Total of 4 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 4 normal] 18:58 -!- Irssi: Join to #okfn was synced in 0 secs 19:01 hi everyone 19:02 -!- mhholloway [~chatzilla@87-194-63-22.bethere.co.uk] has joined #okfn 19:02 hello all 19:03 hey michael 19:03 zool: hey jo ... 19:07 agenda: http://okfn.org/wiki/meetings/2007-04 19:07 Thanks, Rufus 19:08 -!- jonathan_ [~jonathan@81-178-102-88.dsl.pipex.com] has joined #okfn 19:08 hi jonathan 19:08 < jonathan_> hi 19:09 < jonathan_> have i missed anything? 19:09 not yet 19:09 < jonathan_> ok (hope i'm all set up right) 19:09 still waiting on jo who from what she wrote to the list definitely seemed to be intending to come 19:09 < jonathan_> jo walsh? 19:09 yes 19:09 < jonathan_> ok. 19:11 has everyone seen the agenda? 19:11 that usually speeds things up a tad :) 19:11 yes 19:12 fantastic 19:12 Um, before we get into detail, i am to send Becky's apologies. 19:12 no problem 19:13 (Becky = Becky Hogge of the Open Rights Group) 19:13 what happened with the meeting with the LDA -- was there any discussion of the pdw db? 19:15 mhholloway: ? 19:15 The meeting went well, although they wanted something different to pdburn. 19:15 what are they looking for? 19:16 We'll put together a funding proposal and try get them to look again! 19:16 sure, what were they looking for? 19:17 hi hi 19:17 sorry late, was communing with a printer 19:18 hey jo 19:18 my laptop clock is slow 19:18 good to see you 19:18 no problem 19:18 the dog ate my grandmother, etc 19:18 good 19:18 etc 19:18 ! 19:18 ok i think we can get started with the agenda 19:18 normally we can be pretty free and easy 19:19 http://okfn.org/wiki/meetings/2007-04 19:19 re. okcon: only a couple of things 19:20 1. any blog posts/photos etc do say and we can post them up on: www.okfn.org/okcon/after/ 19:20 the blog reviews seemed positive, reassured me 19:20 -!- b3cki [~becky.hog@host81-130-39-14.in-addr.btopenworld.com] has joined #okfn 19:20 yes they were generally very positive and I also heard good things in person (e.g. from Paula LeDieu) 19:20 hello 19:20 hi becky! 19:21 glad you could make it 19:21 hey 19:21 hej b3cki 19:21 hi all 19:21 < jonathan_> hey 19:21 just dropping by to answer questions about lda meeting 19:21 'cos I'm meant to be preparing for a podcast interview thingy 19:21 great (might also want to get your input on pdw -- public domain works -- progression generally) 19:21 okay, cool 19:22 btw i'm an irc newbie so if I make any boobs just tell me 19:22 no problem 19:22 okay one quick last item on okcon before moving on to pdw 19:22 2. [okcon] doing it again 19:22 i know it is early but we could start thinking about when/where we would like to do it next year 19:22 I thought it was great 19:23 good to hear 19:23 definitely, and when? when's a godo time for LSE, etc, that kind of will dictate it 19:23 ... if that makes sense as a venue 19:23 exactly -- our experience this year was that lead in time is *significant* 19:23 < jonathan_> who's organising the venue? 19:23 btw: anyone who'd like to join the 'programme committee' should just say 19:24 it would be good to get frank kelly - open transport info - he seemed booked so far ahead 19:24 no one has taken that on yet 19:24 < jonathan_> ok 19:24 i'd say that was the first item next is to pick streams (we certainly won't be doing that today :) 19:24 so, writing a todo for next year, before next meet, then :) 19:24 basically justa heads up to say we could probably start thinking about venue/data in next couple of months and then put out a cfp 19:25 exactly ;-) 19:25 cool 19:25 great. i'm happy to liase with venue, seeing as i'm london-based 19:25 we can put a page up on the wiki and start editing that (btw i think everyone on: http://okfn.org/wiki/AdminGroup 19:25 really does have admin permissions now. 19:25 [end of item ] 19:26 [start: public domain works item] 19:26 (if that is cool with everyone ...?) 19:26 Cool with me 19:26 < jonathan_> yep 19:26 let's hear it 19:27 b3cki: what happened with the LDA (london development agency) meeting? 19:27 Okay, so I went there not knowing what to expect but thinking to pitch PD Burn as a project 19:27 Turns out they were into something different 19:27 what are they looking for? 19:27 Nothing PD related - will discuss with you via ORG board list 19:28 k? 19:28 So... 19:28 oo-er 19:28 sure that sounds fine 19:28 Personally I don't think it's a goer, which is why I still want to pitch PDBurn 19:28 And... 19:28 so.. 19:28 I got an email from the guy today, pointing to the Own-It event 19:29 next Tues about working with public domain works 19:29 Which Michael is already going to 19:29 http://www.own-it.org/events/details/?eventId=203 19:29 Thanks, michael - was just trying to do it myself 19:30 So I think if we put a proposal together, we could secure funding 19:30 ...but not much 19:30 maybe up to about £5K 19:30 sure but it would be nice to get. 19:31 So it's not definite, but it's positive, and I think we should pursue it 19:31 we don't really need much. that could pay someone to do web stuff one day a week and a programmer for a couple of weeks 19:31 Indeed 19:31 sounds good. tbh the funding is a complement not a substitute for our own work 19:31 http://www.own-it.org/ipinfo/ gives me the willies 19:31 Deffo 19:31 be nice to have but we've got plenty to get on with independently 19:32 looking at http://www.own-it.org/events/details/?eventId=203 19:32 I think if we were going for funding we'd need to emphasise the value of the project in the $$$ sense of the word 19:32 we are probably more up to date on the legal side of things than they are 19:32 Apologies i've not forged ahead with 1. Copyright explanation 2. Contacing iCommons / CC 19:32 b3cki: naturally ... 19:32 Would this be a problem? 19:33 would you have a chance to get in contact with CC + icommons in the next couple of weeks 19:33 Certainly, and also progress the (C) sections. 19:33 I'm happy to take over the spam-monitoring too, am sure one of the org-tech folks can gimme a walk-thru 19:34 b3cki: no i don't think emphasizing the $$$ side of it would be a problem though we'd need to be clear where the $$$ were coming from (one obvious idea is that we rip the music as by-sa and then charge people who don't like the sa provision -- the classic mysql approach) 19:34 Nice idea 19:34 "the value of the public domain" and all that 19:34 < jonathan_> sorry - sa? 19:34 mhholloway: you are already a wordpress admin so you be able to configure it to mail you as well as me about spam stuff 19:34 share alike 19:34 < jonathan_> ok 19:35 jonathan_: sa = share-alike 19:35 < jonathan_> nods 19:35 will do. 19:35 say you have a commercial that wants to use our ripped copy of some pd recording they don't want to have the sa provision kick in 19:35 Guys - I've really got to bust - can I ask a couple more questions on funding? 19:35 this is the flip-side of getting the new recording copyright for remastering ... 19:35 go for it 19:36 Okay - so, if we went for it, I get the impression we'd have a better chance of success if ORG fronted it 19:37 19:37 no, but why would it not work as a partnership? 19:37 hehe, i am curious why though have nothing to add or suggest :) 19:37 Partnership - yes 19:38 consortium, even 19:38 indeed. zool - 2 things - contact value and previous history of delivery to funders 19:38 < jonathan_> contract? 19:38 right, sounds like the media arts merrygoround 19:39 b3cki: are you saying that it can not be run as a partnership/consortium approach 19:39 < jonathan_> is there a need for one organisation to front? 19:40 it has to be ORG-only? 19:40 No, not at all - a partnership 19:40 < jonathan_> ok 19:40 I'm just conscious it is not, as it stands, an ORG project 19:40 Although members of ORG are involved... 19:40 sure, but the idea is that ORG becomes a partner on the project 19:41 i don't think there is any problem with a joint application 19:41 Exactly 19:41 < jonathan_> fee culture uk / org / okfn? 19:41 furthermore it would be rather hard for you as ORG exec dir to be involved in a funding proposal for a project ORG was not involved in officially in some way 19:41 < jonathan_> free 19:42 as with submission to psp - I liked that partnership very much 19:42 absolutely -- the whole point is to collaborate with others orgs (pardon the pun) 19:43 unclear that FC-UK are still operational? 19:43 lol. so - my next suggestion is - can I work up a proposal to send to you guys? 19:43 mhholloway: sure, but let's not worry about that for the time being 19:43 < jonathan_> that sounds like a good plan 19:43 b3cki: yes, work up a proposal and we can then discuss it. perhaps you could join the pdb-discuss list? 19:44 (if you are not on there already) 19:44 I'm there - got to go - will post a proposal to pdb-discuss forthwith 19:45 fantastic -- thx, and speak soon. 19:45 thanks, B 19:45 cheers b3cki 19:45 < jonathan_> take care 19:46 [pdw: end: funding proposal --] 19:46 moving on to other pdw stuff i think we can skip first item on okcon as tim not here 19:46 yep 19:46 < jonathan_> ok 19:46 michael has already kindly said he'll look into the spam and sorting out copyright section 19:46 -!- b3cki [~becky.hog@host81-130-39-14.in-addr.btopenworld.com] has left #okfn [] 19:47 asap 19:47 one thing that's slowed me in contacting cc / icommons, is lack of clarity on purpose of communications. 19:48 i appreciate we're looking to link with other projects doing similar work 19:48 but would be good to know more about what you backend folks are up to, and what we need help with 19:48 sure (btw, do just mail on list if unclear ... :-) 19:48 yeah, apologies 19:49 on icommons: seee http://lists.okfn.org/pipermail/pdb-discuss/2007-March/000185.html 19:49 links to: http://lists.okfn.org/pipermail/pdb-discuss/2006-October/000099.html 19:49 ok, will digest 19:49 basically just mail icommons saying, look we replied to this enquiry (Tom Chance wrote back) and do you know what is happening 19:50 (also might want to ask what the icommons incubator is ...) 19:50 on cc-us just want to follow up: http://lists.okfn.org/pipermail/pdb-discuss/2006-May/000029.html 19:51 thanks very much 19:51 say hey, it is a year later we have been doing X do you know what is going on in canada etc etc 19:51 np 19:51 excellect 19:51 moving on we have 19:51 pdw: promoting 19:52 be nice to maybe prepare an update and call for volunteers 19:52 1 para saying what we have been doing and 1 para saying where we need help 19:52 could use: http://www.freeculture.org.uk/PublicDomainBurn/CallForVolunteers 19:52 http://www.publicdomainworks.net/participate 19:53 send this to suitable mailing lists (org-discuss? ...) 19:53 icommmons-discuss ... 19:53 i'm on that too. 19:54 will update (C) section this week(end), try get something out of CC, then call for input back end of next week 19:54 fantastic :-) 19:54 sounds good, could even push call for input back to start of may as that will be a good time 19:54 ok so that just leaves: 19:55 pdw: coding 19:55 i've continued to hack away here 19:55 Not me! 19:55 http://www.publicdomainworks.net/2007/03/25/some-statistics/ 19:55 have some bbc data and could start analysing that 19:55 I guess the call for participation should include ref to the particular coding skills we're after? 19:56 yes, or just to what we are trying to do 19:56 very useful stats, nice one 19:57 on coding front we're still on: 19:57 http://lists.okfn.org/pipermail/pdb-discuss/2007-March/000167.html 19:57 next step is probably to put together a simple web interface and mount it at http://db.publicdomainworks.net/ 19:58 Just having a nice list of pd recordings and people would be an achievement and would be plenty of blog juice i would imagine 19:59 < jonathan_> sounds good 19:59 This is all good for my contact with iCommons / CC, and preparing 'call for participation' - thanks 19:59 (particularly as CC-CA don't seem to be progressing that fast see e.g. http://excesscopyright.blogspot.com/2007/01/public-domain-registry-mclean-delivers.html) 20:00 ok mindful of the time i suggest we close this item out 20:01 [pdw: end ] 20:01 and on that note i'll make a sharp exit. Thanks, Rufus. Take care Jon and Jo. 20:01 thanks for coming along mike 20:01 see ya 20:01 < jonathan_> take care 20:01 -!- mhholloway [~chatzilla@87-194-63-22.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Chatzilla 0.9.77 [Firefox 2.0.0.1/2006120417]] 20:01 ok now follows a whirlwind tour of some other of our recent active work 20:02 < jonathan_> interesting post on excess copyright 20:02 yep 20:02 also what i love from the own-it link was the site: 20:02 http://www.universalleonardo.org/trail.php?trail=544&work=247 20:02 sorry, http://www.universalleonardo.org/ 20:03 beautiful site and at the bottom a nice little (c) University of Arts London meaning everything in there can't be reused it is access only (and only for as long as the site stays there) 20:03 anyway 20:03 first up: 20:03 ckan.net: 20:03 < jonathan_> (was temporarily confused) 20:03 zool: don't know whether you've had the chance to look 20:03 < jonathan_> ah 20:04 this very evening i put up the 'production' version at http://www.ckan.net/ 20:04 ckan.net ... not recently 20:04 (separate from test.ckan.net) 20:04 i figure now is as good as ever (plenty of improvements still to make) but it seems to be working .... 20:04 great! 20:04 < jonathan_> great! 20:04 < jonathan_> looks good 20:04 i encourage everyone to start adding stuff to it 20:05 taking its time to respons from here, you still having nasty server performance issues? ;? 20:05 for me it is pretty much instantaneous ... 20:05 (it is running on eu0.okfn.org so not server issues) 20:06 hm okay, perhaps i just have some weird arsed routing issues 20:06 (particularly weird as eu0.okfn.org is in germany ...) 20:06 but we can start adding material to it 20:07 this will also give me an incentive to fix any bugs add any new features etc 20:07 for example nice to be add arbitrary metadata to packages and that should be easy to do 20:07 < jonathan_> whats kinds of things are you keen to add in the first instance? 20:09 it is for open knowledge packages (and maybe projects) but i think we can also have closed stuff 20:09 terrific re. arbitrary metadata ... am all deep in geometadata at the moment and it will be interesting to have another conduit for it 20:09 so wherever you see a chunk of data why not add it in 20:09 heh, thats nice and geenral 20:09 screentime is a precious commodity for me at the moment though and i have too much work on :/ but i will keep my eyes on it 20:10 < jonathan_> ok 20:10 < jonathan_> i'll try and put a few things on 20:10 zool: that raises a good point. what would you need to make it absolutely trivial to use 20:11 would you like a del.icio.us like pice of js to auto post to the site? 20:11 that kind of feedback would be really useful? 20:11 hm okay 20:11 a del. style bookmarklet, i can't see that working out so well though it's a nice idea 20:12 depends are you keener to index Real Structured Data or places where it can be got or both 20:12 i guess the thing you'd really like is the REST interface so that you can auto add stuff 20:12 :-) 20:12 * zool smiles yes and i suppose i'd have to write that first? :) 20:13 < jonathan_> uh oh 20:13 but yea, thats more the sort of thing - a simple API somewhat like the - DAZ? - setup that Tim Hubbard was describing too 20:14 to be honest i've designed the controllers so that a rest api should be almost trivial 20:14 here's a fun example of a delicious clone ostensibly for geospatial resources http://88.198.44.148/directory/ 20:14 the only real issue is putting in the authentication 20:14 wonderful 20:14 right 20:14 who is running that? 20:14 is there a single-sign-on equivalent with kforge etc? 20:15 stefn keller, with whom i've collaborated a bit on simple metadata information models for geodata 20:15 or rather he got his students to produce it... not 'laucnhed' yet 20:15 maybe we could collaborate ... 20:15 ckan uses openid 20:15 but i've seen peoples reactions to this and to his main site be rather confused... people are expecting Real Data and then get references to it 20:15 good 20:16 more people should, and all that 20:17 at the present i'm really thinking of ckan morphing more and more towards something like cpan or python package index but with only the metadata being centralized and the data being distributed (after all it is not feasible to host terabytes of geodata all in one place) 20:18 right, and to see a core of metadata which can be automatically or manually extended in different places 20:18 yep 20:19 i am glad you have good progress, and sorry i'm not generally able to concentrate more :/ 20:19 but we have to implement. cool ideas and working code -- that's the motto 20:19 no worry 20:20 < jonathan_> ok 20:20 i need to screenbreak, and wonder how much more of the agenda you hope to get through tonight ;) 20:20 i think we can end there 20:20 brb 20:20 < jonathan_> good to hear about open shakespeare 20:20 we can leave open shakespeare until next time 20:21 < jonathan_> ok 20:21 yes good that is now working 20:21 plenty still to do on it though ... 20:21 i'll look forward to seeing the pdw developments 20:21 < jonathan_> also, briefly: what is open textbook? 20:21 jonathan_: on a final note did you get my response on the matc proposal. i think it looks good 20:21 < jonathan_> yep, going to go through it again soon 20:21 < jonathan_> you made good revisions 20:21 i will be out of contact pretty much from thursday onwards until mid next week so i will leave it to you to submit 20:22 < jonathan_> ok. will you be around wed. pm.? 20:22 i don't think i will be able to get any specific endorsements unfortunately given the timeline but the whole aim of this is to practise (it is a real longshot) 20:22 k cheers... have a good break rgrp ... l8rs jonathan_ 20:22 * zool screenoff awhile 20:22 zool: wait ... 20:22 < jonathan_> take care zool 20:23 ah well missed her, had one last question 20:23 < jonathan_> phone? :-) 20:23 jonathan_: suggest we speak by phone quickly on matc stuff ... 20:23 speak in a mo 20:23 o&o 20:23 < jonathan_> nods 20:24 < Schuyler> rgrp: have you seen this? http://www.zotero.org/blog/annotate-and-highlight-your-archived-pages/ 20:24 < Schuyler> it reminded me of your collaborative annotation concept. 20:24 < Schuyler> (it is however based on a Mozilla plugin) 20:24 i've definitely seen zotero 20:24 but i had not seen this feature 20:24 main problem with zotero is everything is in there particular db with no particulary nice api 20:25 already quite a lot of firefox-specific web annotation stuff ... 20:25 < jonathan_> ok got to eat/work/sleep 20:25 < Schuyler> I do believe the Zotero folks are into writing APIs to their work 20:26 < Schuyler> and building up a networked social backend, as well 20:26 * Schuyler shrugs 20:26 < Schuyler> seemed like it was in your line, thought I'd flag it up :) 20:26 no that is really cool 20:26 thanks for pointing it out 20:26 < Schuyler> you want something browser independent, huh? 20:26 zotero is very neat 20:26 < Schuyler> it is a pretty impressive piece of s/w all things considered 20:26 < jonathan_> speak later rgrp.. bye Schuyler, etc. 20:27 absolutely -- i've been playing around with it for a few months 20:27 < Schuyler> I should've guessed :) 20:27 the problem is haven't had enough time to look at hacking it around to what i want 20:27 -!- jonathan_ [~jonathan@81-178-102-88.dsl.pipex.com] has left #okfn [] 20:27 < Schuyler> blessedly, it is all just JS 20:27 which is to dump the extracted biblio entries to file/clipboard so i can then keep them in my own subversion managed bibtex file 20:28 < Schuyler> they have about six or eight kinds of export, I do believe 20:28 < Schuyler> bixtex isn't one? 20:28 < Schuyler> *bibtex 20:28 (that is the main problem at present for me: db is stuck on a single machine and no way to store stuff centrally but i am sure that will change) 20:28 yes but you have to keep going export -> file location --> open file --> copy --> paste in master bibtex file etc etc 20:29 after all not all my bib entries come from zotero ... 20:29 * Schuyler nods 20:29 < Schuyler> you want a web service client thingy 20:29 < Schuyler> in fact I think that is their first plan 20:29 it is interesting to watch as we reinvent gui apps in the browser :-) 20:29 < Schuyler> something that posts to a WebDAV server 20:29 < Schuyler> heh, yeah. distressing innit. 20:29 also there are some performance issues -- apparently over 300-1000 entries and it runs into problems loading 20:29 < Schuyler> deployment becomes both easier and harder 20:30 < Schuyler> aha, JavaScript 20:30 * Schuyler fires a flare in the hopes that Moore's Law will come and rescue us 20:30 exactly -- plus they are using sqlite as a backend 20:30 < Schuyler> what's wrong with that? 20:30 < Schuyler> sqlite is actually damn fast 20:30 sqlite is damn fast because it does do ACID 20:30 < Schuyler> but yeah 20:30 (does not do ACID) 20:31 < Schuyler> if Zotero posted to a WebDAV server, would that be a bit more like what you wanted? 20:31 my point is that it is great for small stuff but not for a bib database of maybe 30k entries (maybe it would be fine) 20:31 * Schuyler nods 20:31 exactly 20:31 but it is certainly very cool 20:31 < Schuyler> I fear that may be a limit of the browser environment 20:31 < Schuyler> it's a hog 20:32 * Schuyler fires off another flare just in case Moore's Law didn't see the first one 20:32 anyway unfortunately i must go -- it would be nice to catch up on this kind of stuff more often 20:32 < Schuyler> sigh :) 20:32 < Schuyler> ttfn 20:32 < Schuyler> nice talking to ya 20:32 absolutely --- Log closed Tue Apr 10 20:32:37 2007