Meetings/2007-10

= OKFN Monthly Meeting: October 2007 =

Where and When

 * When: Wednesday 2007-10-10 at 1800 BST
 * Where: #okfn irc channel on oftc.net

Agenda

 * Planning for OKCON 2008
 * Project Updates and Planning
 * 'Open Definitions'
 * Open Service Definition
 * Curatorial board
 * Public Domain works - alpha launched in august
 * Projected join up with Open Library
 * http://www.ckan.net/
 * volunteers to contribute packages
 * coding work
 * TodoList
 * AOB
 * lists: okfn-help, okfn-sysadmin ... (open/closed lists and how many should we have)
 * OKF T-Shirts -- plan to use spreadshirt
 * OKF stickers -- now ordered

Actions

 * rgrp to resolve room liasing with saul as necessary
 * jwyg: to liase with saul re. funding
 * rgrp: to sort venue/date asap
 * jwyg: to talk with saul about sponsorship opportunities
 * jwyg: write up wiki suggestions into draft announce for discuss list
 * all: look at okcon2008 wiki page and start adding proposals. take ownerships of tracks and think who one can invite
 * jywg: draft announce
 * all: mail rgrp with suggestions for advisory council for opendefinition.org
 * rgrp: start inviting people for advisory council for opendefinition.org

IRC Log
#!irc 18:00 let's go for a prompt start (i.e. now by my clock) and deal with okcon stuff first 18:00 right 18:00 great 18:00 hey saul 18:01 zool: yay :) 18:01 hey jwyg 18:01 lo 18:01 okcon 18:01 no joy from the University of Westminster 18:01 hey 18:01 all too expensive 18:01 agenda is at http://okfn.org/wiki/meetings/2007-10 18:01 I thought 18:01 stuff is expensive but I think we can do it -- we can go for combination of charging plus a bit of sponsorship 18:02 jwyg: BFI = British Film Institute? 18:02 because I visited a *great* space there 18:02 and I think we could get it for free 18:02 nods 18:02 it probably only houses about 100 people comfortably 18:02 who you think will sponsor, rgrp ? 18:02 but very comfortably 18:03 we have contacted NLnet 18:03 well we've put in an application to NLNET, could also talk with Talis and maybe others 18:03 i've been in contact with people at LSE about space. it is expensive but a possibility of coorganizing with people there which brings down price 18:03 I can talk to Tim Jones from NODE.London about getting the BFI space, or some other space for free 18:03 SOAS is relatively inexpensive. 18:03 i like the sound of coorganising 18:03 I know I keep saying that 18:04 coorganising with LSE? which department? 18:04 anyone in particular? 18:04 TBH i think it is worth paying for the space to get it sorted 18:04 hmz 18:04 yeah 18:04 info systems i think but i have to check (i know the person not hte dept) 18:04 I guess 18:04 are we hoping for / looking >100 people this time, though? Imaginging that it could double in size? 18:04 yes -- last time we have around 70-80 people with 50 paying for tickets 18:05 So around 150? 18:05 (capacity?) 18:05 with 75 paid 18:05 i think more 80-120 (those are kind of rooms at LSE i was looking at) 18:05 nods 18:05 sounds good 18:05 so rgrp to pursue LSE route? 18:05 yep. with a charge of 10-15 pounds (reductions for those who need it) this is very doable 18:05 quotes for rooms will be in the 800-1200 range 18:05 cool, they have good spaces too 18:06 any other actions re: venue? 18:06 yes: this in process. It *should* have been resolved but Prodromos is very busy at the moment 18:06 basically: i should know by end of week on room 18:06 yay! 18:06 great 18:06 that all sounds v.doable and LSE is good kind of resonance 18:06 one issue is date: if we can't get Sat march 15th what about moving back to April (remember Easter is 22nd) 18:07 i'm currently looking at our two options as 15th or 12th/19th of april with pref for earlier date 18:07 Wasn't April 5th was floated on discussion list? 18:08 yeah, I think so 18:08 you're prob right (and by me too). However i think if we don't do march better to do later. people go away after easter but will be back as terms start etc 18:08 True 18:08 what do people think 18:08 I like march 18:08 failing that, mid-april sounds good 18:08 sure 18:08 I think March might be better if we can get it 18:08 * zool shurgs 18:08 agreed - april only for backup 18:08 nods 18:09 march is a good time to do it because it's the end of the tax year 18:09 ok: action rgrp to resolve room liasing with saul as necessary 18:09 more sponsorship opportunities tend to crop up 18:09 saul: useful point (never thought of that) 18:09 I'll continue to investigate funding. 18:09 * saul lives in fundraising land part time now :/ 18:09 :-) 18:09 action: jonathan to liase with saul re. funding? 18:10 heh 18:10 did I just drop myself in it ;) 18:10 ok 18:10 That sounds good - if Saul's free! 18:10 sure, I'm happy to look into it 18:10 more for your pointers and wisdom from year's of experience 18:10 in a 'being liased with' kind of way 18:10 ;- 18:10 yay! 18:10 :-) 18:11 ok if people are happy propose moving on to more exciting topic of scheduling speakers etc 18:11 +1 18:11 Exactly... 18:11 yep 18:11 propose doing similar to last year and having some speakers invited and some stuff done via formal/informal call for proposals 18:12 what do people think? 18:12 Sounds good. 18:12 I think last year's theme didn't really work so well.... 18:12 I mean, it was a great okcon 18:12 i agree 18:12 but 'atomisation and commercial opportunity' 18:12 ? 18:12 nobody knew wtf that meant 18:13 i'm down with that, having some preferned tracks and inviting speakers but also asking around for who's doing interesting work and would be up for doing a presentation 18:13 though i have to say i always thinks themes are a bit of a con (and don't matter that much) 18:13 yes it was kind of an elephant in the room 18:13 an ok con 18:13 It would be really great if we could invite more speakers from other European countries, esp if we could get funding... 18:13 argh 18:13 sorry 18:13 sorry 18:13 I've been spending too much time with Mikey 18:13 well lets just make up something else equally confusingf 18:13 jwyg: absolutely agree 18:13 i was thinking of something like 'applications' 18:13 eh? 18:13 yes it was great to have funding for speaker travel for wsfii 18:14 rgrp: applications = ? 18:14 funding applications? 18:14 I really like zool's open transport data idea 18:14 i.e. applications of open knowledge but frankly i think we should be pretty catholic and go for interest over being true to the theme 18:14 but there was no sponsorship/application process for that, it was just a la carte 18:14 I think there are usually some headliners 18:14 jwyg: perhaps you want to help organise that session ? :) 18:14 e.g. transport is an application -- it is using open knowledge to fix somethign we care about (not open know in itself) 18:14 zool: absolutely. 18:14 hooray! 18:14 transport data sounds good... if a bit dry 18:15 :P 18:15 we can sex it up ;) 18:15 Ha ha 18:15 well just "open transport" 18:15 Linked to AMEE guys? 18:15 sounds great 18:15 good 18:15 with implications of collectively maintained bus schemes in areas of market failure... 18:15 yes 18:15 um 18:15 absolutely -- exactly what i had been thinking (obvious candidates for 'headliners') 18:15 I've been watching the 'open social graph' discussions with interest 18:15 also was thinking of a tools track 18:15 it's kind of open service 18:16 open social graph (you mean facebook but open ... or ) 18:16 ? 18:16 * saul ratches for link 18:16 oh ugh 18:16 open services as an umbrella term? 18:16 I knew you'd ugh at that zool 18:16 :) 18:17 but nobody bit the rdf worm, so it's being reinvented... 18:17 what kinds of tools 18:17 hmmm 18:17 http://www.sixapart.com/about/news/2007/09/were_opening_th.html 18:17 data search is quite sexy 18:17 David Recordon started a google group about it 18:17 some good people on there 18:17 Jim, Libby, Dan 18:17 others from the foaf scene 18:17 i think so anyway... like structured data packaging and discovery... the metadata/registry/repository stuff... could we find a whole tracks worht of that now ? 18:17 e.g. visualization tools (thinking of Liz here as a coordinator) 18:18 good 18:18 I like that idea 18:18 e.g. guys from stamen 18:18 oh yes that sounds very shiny! 18:18 like the idea of an emphasis on viz 18:18 to get liz involved organising, that would rock 18:18 claps at visualisation 18:18 i think we'd have no problem and a nice way to link in with the 'web app' (web 2.0?) crowd 18:19 yeah, and to have the open service definition discussion 18:19 I mean, the crowd that is discussing this 'social graph' stuff is basically a bunch of people who don't want to remember another user/pass combination 18:19 duh 18:19 one other suggestion is an open eduction track (this might link with LSE guys because i think this is a specific interest there) 18:19 yep 18:19 open education would be good 18:19 there are some interesting people working on related things 18:19 i also think we could get an nc vs. truly open discussion in there 18:20 I'm organising this Peer Education thingy on the 18th 18:20 18th of oct? 18:20 with people from http://schoolofeverything.com 18:20 yeah 18:20 ok 18:20 at Central St. Martin's innovation 18:20 (another option I should have thought of actually) 18:20 schoolofeverything is pretty immature, but there are some nice people working on it 18:21 ok: we have a lot of really good ideas. This is the point i think to break this out to the mailing list/wiki 18:21 Paul Miller (demos connections) Andy (sociality.org.uk), Mary Harrington (Uo), Peter Brownell (Drupal UK) 18:21 yeah 18:21 offtopic, but perhaps some of these ideas could be used as themes for smaller focused forums as well as okcon topics? 18:21 open transport, open social graph, open education 18:21 those are good headliners 18:21 hmmmm 18:21 has paul miller left talis now? 18:22 okay yes this as a rapid sketch and more thinking time and peoiple on the list seems good 18:22 +1 18:22 could open social graph be, e.g. open visualisation? 18:22 rgrp: I think so 18:22 jwyg: open visualisation doesn't really mean very much 18:22 nor does open social graph 18:22 saul: true 18:22 yes it isn't 'open visualization' but visualization using open data 18:22 but it's the sticky meme 18:23 wiki page: http://okfn.org/wiki/okcon2008 18:23 if we can think of a better way of encapsulating it, great 18:23 i've just dumped some stuff there. please brain dump more 18:23 k 18:23 we can also start a thread on list 18:23 thanks rufus 18:23 rgrp: when you said 'tools stack' what did you mean? 18:24 great 18:24 we also need to draft a brief 'announce'. 18:24 Is 'open-data visualization' not sufficient? 18:25 saul: did i say 'tools stack' -- what i meant was tools for examining/analysing open data 18:25 I'm happy to do the announce... 18:25 rgrp: cool 18:25 great. you can draft and then post on list :) 18:25 great 18:25 i think we need to move fairly quickly once we have date to invite oure core speakers 18:25 and put out CfP 18:25 yeah 18:26 nods 18:26 and figure out how we're going to openly transport people here 18:26 I think this time we should aim international 18:26 yep :) 18:26 haha 18:26 and get sponsorship to do it 18:26 yes, i strongly agree. 18:26 Me too 18:27 at the same time i don't want us to compromise the grass-roots spirit for mammon 18:27 :) 18:27 lol 18:27 of course... 18:27 ok: i think that closes the okcon item for time being 18:28 actions: rgrp to sort venue/date asap 18:28 action: jwyg to talk with saul about sponsorship opportunities 18:28 I'll write up wiki suggestions into draft announce for discuss list 18:28 action: all look at okcon2008 wiki page and start adding proposals. take ownerships of tracks and think who one can invite 18:29 k 18:29 action: jwyg: draft announce ... 18:29 are we happy to move on to next item? 18:29 yep! 18:29 nods 18:30 please 18:30 it all seems to have gone a bit quiet? 18:30 ok: open definitions -- this is quick one 18:30 or is that just me? ;) 18:30 zool: you mean this irc meet? 18:30 zool: what's gone quiet? 18:30 this meet... but nm 18:30 open definitions? 18:30 yeah! 18:31 i mentioned briefly in privmail i was interested in putting an "open format definition" 18:31 i will get together some of the context + references for that and send to the main list rsn 18:31 Interesting... 18:31 i was wondering whather the open service defnition was "finalised" 18:31 that would be fantastic and long needed (IAI: http://okfn.org/iai/ was an attempt to start on this) 18:31 I think we should use the okcon to test out open service def 18:31 zool: no it isn't 18:31 lots of TODOs there 18:31 http://opendefinition.org/ only seems to contain the OKD? 18:32 opendefinition.org/osd/ 18:32 probably need to link it from the sidebar and the main page 18:32 I think we should launch the osd at the okcon 18:32 good idea 18:32 ok 18:32 in the meantime it would be good to promote that it is out there (and get feedback on it) 18:32 we could say it is in alpha/beta stage 18:32 I don't think that it's really been discussed widely enough to have any traction 18:32 http://okfn.org/iai/#head-cf74b21e71200b73433f14f5418e8dd417ad26e6http://okfn.org/iai/#head-cf74b21e71200b73433f14f5418e8dd417ad26e6 looks very reusable, thx 18:33 saul: i entirely agree 18:33 right, the osd is still scrappy until more people see it 18:33 rgrp: so, we could use the cfp and announce of okcon as a way of getting more feedback 18:33 regarding curatorial board - would that be for okd + osd, or different for each? 18:33 rgrp: agree about featuring osd more prominently on front page... i find the site a bit confusing as it's still billed as the open knowledge def, but you 18:33 zool: the wiki which is currently down also has a bunch of good stuff 18:33 woops 18:34 ...but you're continuing to add related stuff that deserves priority in its own right 18:34 zool: btw the i mean the iai wiki at okfn.org/iai/wiki 18:34 nfolson: this is true - we should improve links from front page 18:34 nfolson: good point. i don't know what best approach is. perhaps we should just keep it clean 18:35 focused on open knowledge/data definition and move osd elsewhere or to a subdomain. what do people think? 18:35 until it's finalised into a draft form we can be confidant about 18:35 yes 18:35 yep 18:35 i think opendefinition.org is a nice place to put a lot of different open definitions, varia bly exerimental 18:35 sounds prudent 18:36 bah prudence! 18:36 maybe opendefinition.org/staging/ or something could house the unstable definitions 18:36 zool: ya, the domain name could lend itself to several projects 18:36 + an invitation to contribute 18:36 ok 18:36 yeah, prudence can be overrated :) 18:37 * zool screenbreak, biab 18:37 there is definitely an invitation to contribute there at present see: http://opendefinition.org/osd/ 18:37 soz 18:37 of course 18:37 the main item here is creating the curatorial board 18:37 what is the role + function of the curatorial board? 18:37 it sounds arty 18:37 who do you think we should ask? 18:38 it sounds like it could get thorny in a hurry 18:38 we plan to invite a bunch of people with obvious expertise/background in the open data/knowledge field 18:39 the idea is that they are helpign 'curate' the definition. 18:39 maybe we should just call it an advisory council 18:39 'editors'? 18:39 I find 'curator' an overly fuzzy term 18:39 well it was partly meant to be fuzzy :) 18:39 perhaps editors is too precise? 18:40 advisory editors... 18:40 curators just sounds weird 18:40 panel? 18:40 I mean, to an arty farty like me it's quite specific, but in the wrong context 18:40 potential people included Peter Suber, someone from Talis, someone from open content field etc 18:40 i think advisory council/editors sounds good. 18:40 yeps 18:40 nods 18:40 avoids those bad art associations :) 18:41 heh 18:41 good! 18:41 Peter Suber +1 18:41 how about Gregers Petersen? 18:41 ok, we'll go ahead and start organizing this. anyone with suggestions for someone to ask for it mail me. 18:41 ok 18:42 great 18:42 saul: sorry wrote that before the suggestion 18:42 s'ok, just todo listed 'mail rufus re: gregers' 18:42 saul: sounds good 18:42 ok: are we happy to close this out? 18:43 yeps 18:43 nods 18:43 action: all: mail rgrp with suggestions for advisory council 18:43 action: rgrp: start inviting people ... 18:43 sorry, I have to go - my organic veg bag is calling me 18:43 nice meeting so far! 18:43 I'll be in touch re: my todos later. 18:43 saul: np, spk later 18:43 it's still quite organic if it can talk 18:43 l8rs .* 18:43 later 18:43 The BFI restaurant has opened (which I'm currently sitting in) 18:43 bye Saul 18:44 ok: let's try and be quick 18:44 re: Public domain works i propose jwyg email the list with update and also post on blog 18:44 (in fact it is about time for another cycle of project update emails to the list) 18:44 definitely. 18:44 I'll get onto it asap 18:45 this can include details of proposal to link up with open library (+ change from original plan to link up with wikibiblio who have since linked up with ol -- phew its confusing) 18:45 l8rs saul 18:46 are we good to move on to next item: ckan.net? 18:46 Yep. Big action me. 18:46 http://www.openlibrary.org/ ? 18:46 yes ckan 18:46 nods 18:47 zool: yep, openlibrary.org indeed 18:47 hm all trhisx surface gloss that libray informaticians are obsessed with 18:47 yep, i know but we do need somewhere to put the data and they've got archive.org :) 18:47 http://www.worlddigitallibrary.org is another one i saw a presentation from recently 18:47 plus money to pay aaron schwartz and others to do dev work 18:47 that is a google-funded library of congress initiative 18:47 re: help with ckan do you guys know where we might be able to ask for coding volunteers? 18:47 oh, thats nice 18:48 is ther a roadmap / feature request list in trac that i am overlooking? 18:48 zool: remember we're interested in the metadata not the content at this stage 18:48 does anyone got a contact at archive? 18:48 my problem is that geodjango is just So Great i cant bring myself to use anything else 18:48 (got= have) 18:48 i mean fuck dots on a map, really complete integration with the core gis libraries 18:49 hm not really - i have met brewster in the past but i am not sure he would remember me ;) 18:49 jwyg: why? see the list discussion (let's come back to this) 18:49 ok. would like to contact them about their licensing policies... 18:49 is that ok? 18:49 of course... 18:49 ckan.net: 18:49 zool: on your question there is http://knowledgeforge.net/ckan/trac/roadmap 18:49 rgrp: i have been doing some much related work which i just cant spit out all at once and currently vacillating between writing 2000 more words and actually writing some code ;) 18:50 i would be up for making extensions / plugins to ckan to do opensearch, for sure, experimentally 18:50 why not do a brain dump to okfn-discuss? 18:50 ah ha a roadmap 18:50 that would be absolutely *fantastic* 18:50 we also need help on plain data entry 18:50 heh, perhaps, it would be nice to have an excuse just to braindump somewhere different 18:50 it would nice to keep stuff ticking over with say 5 entries a week 18:51 right that is why i want some kind of automatable contribution interface 18:51 nfolson: i wondered if you'd consider adding some more geodata packages? 18:51 zool: sure 18:51 that is definitely the way to go -- though human sweat can also be pretty useful for the tiem being :) 18:51 does anyone know a good place to solicit for coding volunteers? 18:51 * zool sighs all right yes :) 18:51 gold dust :) 18:52 but if i am already expending human sweat to gather metadata in other places i dont want to have to repeat that too much :) 18:52 sure! 18:52 a real priority is a web api that allows automated posting (and grabbing) 18:52 rgrp: i can, but i don't really know many others beyond the two i already added 18:52 see: http://wiki.osgeo.org/index.php/Geodata_Discovery_Working_Group 18:53 if you pointed out a few that deserve mention, i can add them 18:53 there you go :) 18:53 ah 18:53 right 18:54 so on ckan.net we really need two things: 18:55 1. volunteers to add packages (or even just tag pages they find in del.icio.us or similar for pick up later in an automated way) 18:55 all i see here is an empty milestone 18:55 i want to be sure i am able to get out of ckan everything i put in 18:55 2. code development 18:55 doesnt the open servcie defintion mention something about that ;) 18:56 zool: you are correct (though milestone is not empy it has one ticket) 18:56 more tickets on: http://knowledgeforge.net/ckan/trac/report/1 18:56 i also need to move items from TODO.txt into trac :) 18:56 ah okay cool 18:56 i'd really like to be able to garden the entries we already have - some are junk... 18:56 zool: that should be a cast iron guarantee: everything that goes in can come out 18:56 okay that is a ton of stuff 18:57 jwyg: that is a priority which i am currenlty in the process coding (purge of junk revisions) 18:57 brilliant 18:57 however there are always quite a lot of priorities :) 18:57 well maybe i can find the odd bit of time to take on some of these 'enhancements' i *do* keep looking at ckan.net and complaining to myself about it ;) 18:57 :o) 18:57 zool: that would be fantastic... 18:58 zool: even adding tickets to say what is needed would be really valuable 18:58 check 18:59 as its a tool that could be useful to so many parties, could it be useful to ask people for feedback or a wishlist? 18:59 sorry, need to head out. will have a look at those geo packages soon. 18:59 laters all. 18:59 :) 18:59 nfolson: np, and much appreciated. thanks for liasing re the geek night and january looks good 19:00 that sounds great nate... 19:00 nfolson: look forward to seeing you in person as well at that point in oxford 19:00 rgrp: cool--feel free to reply in that thread w/ those two torchbox folks if you want. 19:00 otherwise, we should hear more from them shortly. 19:00 yes, likewise 19:01 take care, all--bye! 19:01 -!- nfolson [~nfolson@dhcp157134.merton.ox.ac.uk] has left #okfn [] 19:01 nfolson: i think you've already got it under control 19:01 ok..restaurant places are filling, i shouldn't stay here for much longer... 19:01 ok: i think that pretty much closes it out. other items such as todo list, stickers etc can be updated on list ... 19:02 re: coding volunteers? 19:02 like i said: gold dust 19:02 could i draft something to send out to some mailing lists? 19:02 one possibility is to try and get it announced to comp scis doing their annual project 19:02 do such mailing lists exist? 19:02 google SoC ... 19:03 zool: great idea. we meant to do that this year but missed deadline 19:03 let's make sure we get on that this year ... 19:03 i could ask stefan keller, he has quite a few students who may be looking for this sort of project 19:03 nods 19:03 zool: that would be fantastic. any other potential lead ... :) 19:03 i was wondering if there is a specific place for programmers for nonprofit/OS projects? 19:04 university of london lists too perhaps.. 19:04 mysociety / publicwhip lists have a lot of drifting / interested people 19:04 jywg: see item 9 on http://okfn.org/wiki/TodoList 19:04 zool: do you think it would be rude to post there? 19:04 i shouldnt be offering to do more thing so, i should fix a ton of web pages first ;) 19:04 rgrp: that's what i had in mind... 19:04 rgrp: i shouldnt think so, no why? 19:04 they have posted on widespread lists begging for help in the past 19:05 well we would not be begging but outlining our exciting roadmap 19:05 exactly :) 19:05 spamming == fine 19:05 i'll mention it to the linking open data list 19:05 hooray! 19:05 hmm.. 19:05 good idea -- we should work to get a very simple summary of our 2/3 main projects we want help with a clear link to a participate/todolist page 19:06 ok: are we ready to close the meeting out?