Meetings/2008-09-10

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Meeting 2008-09-10

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19:11:28 <jwyg>	hi robmyers
19:11:33 <jwyg>	hi patrickwelch
19:11:37 <robmyers>	heya
19:11:39 <patrickwelch>	Hello :)
19:11:58 <jwyg>	who are mib_bjzx8k and mib_dwmygm?
19:12:52 <jwyg>	patrick - perhaps you would like to start by introducing yourself and your idea! :-)
19:13:08 <patrickwelch>	sure
19:14:00 <patrickwelch>	My name is Patrick Welch, and I am a masters student of clinical psychology attending the university of regina (in saskatchewan canada), as well as a member of the anxiety and illness behaviours laboratory - aibl.ca
19:14:30 <jwyg>	great
19:14:30 <patrickwelch>	I submitted an idea/qeustion to the discussion list recently regarding research article translations
19:14:35 <jwyg>	ah yes!
19:14:35 <rgrp>	yes
19:15:12 <patrickwelch>	I'm curious as to whether there is any service/site/project that is attempting to facilitate the spread of research and articles to other languages
19:15:38 <jwyg>	i do wonder if there are initiatives going on to translate open access journals
19:15:48 <patrickwelch>	If there isn't such a project/activity going on somewhere, then I guess I wanted to see if and how it could be started
19:16:33 <rgrp>	i have to say I don't know of such a project
19:16:43 <jwyg>	i'm not sure either
19:16:45 <rgrp>	the person to ask for an authoratitive answer would be Peter Suber
19:16:51 <jwyg>	i was just going to say...
19:16:53 <jwyg>	:-=)
19:16:56 <patrickwelch>	there are a number of legal questions that likely wont be resolved for some time :S (until very liberal open access is common) but it may be usefull to have such a project started to get people thinking about it and possibly contributing
19:17:06 <patrickwelch>	good idea
19:17:23 <jwyg>	him and lesley chan are working on a project called oasis
19:17:37 <jwyg>	which aims to document international open access projects/initiatives
19:18:10 <patrickwelch>	excellent
19:18:11 <jwyg>	i'm not sure if this is up yet..
19:18:17 <rgrp>	in terms of tools I know that software distributions like debian and ubuntu have a good set of tools for facilitating distributed translation
19:18:28 <jwyg>	there's also http://oad.simmons.edu/oadwiki/Main_Page
19:18:56 <jwyg>	which is a directory peter's working on..
19:19:38 <jwyg>	my guess is that if you were interested in starting a project it would be good to start with a specific language and a specific language...
19:19:44 <jwyg>	*discipline
19:19:47 <jwyg>	:-)
19:19:59 <robmyers>	yes, the "scratch an itch" approach
19:20:14 <jwyg>	exactly
19:20:23 <patrickwelch>	That is a good idea
19:20:48 <patrickwelch>	I am working towards starting an open access for psychology project soon
19:21:01 <jwyg>	i know there was someone at cambridge particularly interested in open access in the sciences in africa
19:21:04 <patrickwelch>	and a language branch off would be ideal
19:21:22 <jwyg>	true!
19:21:31 <jwyg>	that sounds interesting..
19:22:14 <robmyers>	If the journal uses a creative commons licence that allows modification then that permits translation by default.
19:22:29 <jwyg>	you could try asking on psychology lists and on some of the OA lists at http://oad.simmons.edu/oadwiki/Discussion_forums
19:22:30 <patrickwelch>	Those would be the wonderful 'low hanging fruit'
19:22:58 *	mib_bjzx8k has quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
19:23:01 <patrickwelch>	After something gets started, perhaps pressure can be brought to bear on publishers to allow for translations
19:23:50 <jwyg>	are there any OA journals in psychology?
19:24:07 <patrickwelch>	There are a fair number (though still a minority) that are growing
19:24:18 <robmyers>	Translations are a subset of adaptations/derivations, so if they allow those generally (i.e. if they allow people to copy and modify the work) then they allow translations automatically. It's easier to do that than to work out a new translation license.
19:24:22 <robmyers>	I allege ;-)
19:24:25 <patrickwelch>	but the pressure is building, and I hope to start advocating from a psych perspective
19:25:33 <patrickwelch>	True, I suspect that the adaptation/derivation liceses are the minority of the open access licenses thus far, but it is something that can be advocated for - particularly if there are cogent arguments that can be made to researchers and publishers
19:25:57 <patrickwelch>	Well, thank you very much for your suggestions and links
19:26:26 <jwyg>	might also want to try http://www.doaj.org/doaj?func=findJournals&hybrid=&query=psychology
19:26:32 <rgrp>	not at all. and I think robmyers is probably right that it is better to push for full 'openness' rather than just get a special translation execption
19:26:33 <jwyg>	for OA psychology journals
19:26:53 <patrickwelch>	I agree
19:27:12 <jwyg>	sounds like it could be a really interesting project
19:27:31 <patrickwelch>	Unfortunately there is still a lot of work to do in getting the psych community convinced/converted, but we got to start somewhere
19:27:36 <patrickwelch>	hopefully ;)
19:27:50 <jwyg>	unfortunately translation is also pretty time consuming :-)
19:28:11 <patrickwelch>	true, I was thinking that crappy 'online translations
19:28:13 <patrickwelch>	oops
19:28:40 <jwyg>	another interesting thing would be public domain texts...
19:29:01 <patrickwelch>	true, I was thinking that crappy 'online translations' could be posted as a starting point in a wiki-style set up, and then community members with knowledge of the language could come help translate propperly
19:29:02 <rgrp>	though those would be reather old ...
19:29:08 <jwyg>	i've been considering doing this for some archives of letters in my area..
19:29:14 <patrickwelch>	true, but some psych classics are rather old :)
19:29:23 <jwyg>	william james? :-)
19:29:23 <rgrp>	that is a really good idea (at least as long as the basic translation is not *too* bad)
19:29:29 <patrickwelch>	exactly :)
19:29:37 <jwyg>	there's *lots* of freud
19:29:38 <robmyers>	It's an interesting problem domain because you need people who know both psychology and languages. I was wondering whether it might be good practice for language students, but they probably wouldn't know the terminology and wouldn't be able to evaluate translations of concepts.
19:29:51 <robmyers>	[for the example of an open language journal]
19:30:27 <jwyg>	true about using a wiki...
19:30:27 <patrickwelch>	thats true, there would be need of specialists in both the languages being translated and the discipline
19:31:02 <jwyg>	you might also be interested in http://opentranslation.aspirationtech.org/index.php/Main_Page
19:31:07 <patrickwelch>	perhaps the 'trickier' words/phrases could be flagged for attention by a bilingual discipline specialist
19:31:16 <patrickwelch>	ahhh, cool
19:31:26 <robmyers>	possibly they could collaborate? It might be a good way of everyone learning something. :-) So have a queue of language and concept queries for people to grab. Have a points system to encourage people.
19:32:15 <patrickwelch>	that would be very interesting
19:32:31 <jwyg>	there's also http://www.co-ment.net/ for having two texts laid out side by side..
19:32:50 <jwyg>	rgrp: what are we using for open shakespeare for annotation? is it wiki-like?
19:33:43 <rgrp>	open shakespeare annoation has now been disable
19:33:50 <rgrp>	i suggested we use co-ment
19:33:50 <jwyg>	ok..
19:33:52 <jwyg>	great
19:34:01 <patrickwelch>	that looks very interesting
19:34:20 <rgrp>	the code is still working but it is a pain to have it working well on large texts
19:34:27 <robmyers>	is co-ment Free?
19:35:01 <jwyg>	yup
19:35:23 <jwyg>	"
19:35:23 <jwyg>	The source code for the full functionality of the co-ment service is distributed as free software under the GNU Affero GPL version 3"
19:35:39 <mlinksva>	robmyers: agpl ... planning to use for ccv4 development when that happens in some number of years :)
19:35:42 <patrickwelch>	excellent, I'm a fan of the agpl
19:35:51 <jwyg>	hey mike! :-)
19:36:32 <robmyers>	oh kewl
19:36:53 <robmyers>	mlinksva: heh. also kewl.
19:37:13 <jwyg>	alright...
19:37:51 <patrickwelch>	Well I think I have a lot of good stuff to work with now :) you guys are a fantastic help. I will let you know how things develop (though it may take me a little bit to get things going)
19:37:58 <jwyg>	patrick - if you're interested in working with public domain texts in psychology - you might also be interested in what we're doing with open shakespeare..
19:38:27 <jwyg>	see, e.g. http://www.openshakespeare.org/stats/word/love
19:38:49 <patrickwelch>	I noticed reference to your project on your web pages, but I haven't checked it out in any detail yet.
19:40:04 <patrickwelch>	I'll have to spend some time checking it out, that looks very interesting
19:40:08 <jwyg>	:-)
19:40:50 <jwyg>	robmyers: how did you get on with datapkg?
19:41:38 <patrickwelch>	Well thanks again, I'll post an update in the future to the discuss list, or pop by for another of your irc meetings :)
19:41:41 <robmyers>	Yes I had a go. Rufus provided lots of support.
19:41:58 <rgrp>	patrickwelch: sounds good. look forward to seeing you again.
19:42:19 <jwyg>	great patrick!
19:42:34 <patrickwelch>	take care all, and good luck in all your endeavors
19:42:47 <jwyg>	thanks! :-) look forward to hearing how you get on!
19:42:57 <mlinksva>	i've only skimmed above, but i recall (possibly incorrectly and possibly irrelevantly) that science commons recently convinced a large scientific publisher in pt or es speaking world to move to OA/CC BY so the content could be translated/available to en speaking scientific world
19:43:45 <robmyers>	yes Science Commons are very keen on BY. ;-) Which is ideal for translation, although it would allow proprietary translations. Which may or may not be good relative to SC's aims.
19:43:47 <patrickwelch>	ahh, I just caught that before I logged off, thanks mlinksva
19:44:59 <jwyg>	i think BY is great for journals
19:45:35 <jwyg>	SPARC Europe require BY for their OA seal..
19:46:13 <robmyers>	oh really?
19:47:14 <jwyg>	nods
19:47:41 <jwyg>	mlinksva: i wonder which publisher it was..
19:47:45 <robmyers>	(scribble, scribble)
19:48:16 <patrickwelch>	do you guys mind if I lurk in the background here while I get back to work, so that I can catch any other gems that might crop up
19:48:28 <jwyg>	patrick: please do! :-)
19:48:39 <jwyg>	ok.. so we've got a couple of things on our agenda..
19:48:52 <jwyg>	is there anything else anyone is particularly keen to chat about?
19:48:55 <patrickwelch>	thanks, I'll let you guys get back to your meeting
19:50:13 <jwyg>	mlinksva: i've been meaning to get back to you regarding CKAN + CC
19:50:38 <robmyers>	Oh I set up some web pages for Open Hogarth stuff: http://okfn.org/wiki/OpenArtHistory  http://okfn.org/wiki/OpenHogarth . Just working up to a proposal.
19:51:17 <mlinksva>	jwyg: no problem, i can deal with hanging threads, or i'd be dead :)
19:51:43 <robmyers>	I'll have some questions about copyright of reproductions to ask.
19:52:07 <jwyg>	mike - :-)
19:52:08 <rgrp>	robmyers: this looks great
19:52:35 <jwyg>	rgrp: do you know how well ckan could talk to semantic mediawiki?
19:52:42 <rgrp>	next step: where do we start finding material on hogarth
19:52:49 <jwyg>	rob: looks great!
19:52:51 <rgrp>	jwyg: to do what?
19:52:52 <robmyers>	ta
19:53:05 <rgrp>	i assume semanticmediawiki will expose its stuff as rdf
19:53:09 <jwyg>	rgrp: share package info
19:53:11 <rgrp>	we expose stuff as plain old json
19:53:17 <rgrp>	i am sure we could move things back and forth
19:53:24 <jwyg>	brilliant!
19:53:27 <rgrp>	why?
19:53:50 <jwyg>	i was having a brief discussion with mike about trying to get ckan and http://wiki.creativecommons.org/ODEPO to talk to each other
19:54:31 <jwyg>	or was at least tentatively wondering if there was any way we could align more closely on content registry work
19:55:07 <jwyg>	rob: particularly keen on doing stuff with durer :-)
19:56:00 <robmyers>	yes Durer is excellent, and upsets proper art historians less than Hogarth ;-) 
19:56:20 <jwyg>	robmers: what were you interested in asking about copyright of reproductions?
19:56:29 <jwyg>	bridgeman vs. corel type stuff?
19:56:54 <rgrp>	mlinksva: how does one get a rdf dump of http://wiki.creativecommons.org/ODEPO
19:57:23 <rgrp>	or a plain old spl one?
19:57:29 <robmyers>	Oh given the absence of a bridgeman vs. corel in the UK, our lower standard of originality, and the ip-maximalist stance of galleries and publishers whether scanning book reproductions of work by artists who have been dead for hundreds of years is safe.
19:58:18 <jwyg>	i wouldn't.
19:58:57 <jwyg>	it depends on what it was for...
19:59:11 <jwyg>	wikimedia foundation put out a statement on this..
19:59:14 <jwyg>	did you see it?
19:59:27 <jwyg>	obviously IANAL :-)
19:59:32 <robmyers>	finding hogarth material: the main sources would be museums and dealers. But more easily, books, universities and any private individuals who have prints (my family may have copies of Gin Lane / Beer Street, I'll have to check). Start with low-quality placeholders and then try to find better ones.
19:59:32 <rgrp>	no i didn't
19:59:34 <rgrp>	do you have the link
19:59:53 <robmyers>	IANAL either. No, I didn't see that. So no chopping up Dover editions then scanning them? :-/
20:00:43 <jwyg>	http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:When_to_use_the_PD-Art_tag
20:01:13 <jwyg>	cf.     To put it plainly, WMF's position has always been that faithful reproductions of two-dimensional public domain works of art are public domain, and that claims to the contrary represent an assault on the very concept of a public domain. If museums and galleries not only claim copyright on reproductions, but also control the access to the ability to reproduce pictures (by prohibiting photos, etc.), important historical works that are legally i
20:01:13 <jwyg>	n the public domain can be made inaccessible to the public except through gatekeepers.
20:01:13 <jwyg>	    WMF has made it clear that in the absence of even a strong legal complaint, we don't think it's a good idea to dignify such claims of copyright on public domain works. And, if we ever were seriously legally challenged, we would have a good internal debate about whether we'd fight such a case, and build publicity around it. This is neither a policy change (at least from WMF's point of view), nor is it a change that has implications for other Comm
20:01:13 <jwyg>	ons policies. —Erik Möller 01:34, 25 July 2008 (UTC) 
20:01:17 <jwyg>	oops sorry
20:01:18 <rgrp>	robmyers: would this sort of thing be useful: http://www.archive.org/details/hogarth017519mbp
20:01:30 <rgrp>	more generally: http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=hogarth
20:01:58 <robmyers>	"Photograph of an Old Master scanned in from a recently published book  OK. The WMF takes the view that as long as the reproduction is a faithful reproduction of the original it falls into the public domain."
20:02:10 <jwyg>	its fine to transcribe from photos of PD editions right?
20:02:21 <robmyers>	oh that's excellent
20:02:53 <rgrp>	:q
20:03:13 <robmyers>	I think I spent a weekend downloading the source tiffs for some scans of etchings from archive.org once, I'll have to find the disk. They weren't all that, but they'd be good placeholders.
20:03:27 <robmyers>	:q ?
20:03:33 <jwyg>	strange face?
20:03:45 <robmyers>	ah
20:03:47 <rgrp>	sorry getting my windows mixed
20:03:52 <jwyg>	:-)
20:03:52 <rgrp>	:q = quit in vim
20:03:57 <robmyers>	oh there's more hogarth than there was at a.o, great!
20:03:59 <robmyers>	heh
20:04:12 <jwyg>	IA are busy
20:04:13 <rgrp>	yes it looks good
20:04:57 <mlinksva>	rgrp: i haven't tried it but http://wiki.creativecommons.org/Special:ExportRDF ought to work
20:05:16 *	ipe (~chatzilla@78.146.236.74) has joined #okfn
20:05:23 <jwyg>	hi ipe!
20:05:30 <ipe>	hi
20:05:31 <robmyers>	durer: http://www.archive.org/details/albertdurer00moorrich
20:05:39 <jwyg>	brilliant rob!
20:06:13 <mlinksva>	if not we can figure somethign else out
20:06:17 *	ipe has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
20:06:21 <robmyers>	and hogarth at wikimedia commons: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/William_Hogarth
20:06:39 <jwyg>	i wish IA used PDDL/CC0
20:06:42 <robmyers>	So if we grab these, then see if anyone can get a multi-megapixel camera pointed at actual prints. :-)
20:06:54 *	ipe (~chatzilla@78.147.206.205) has joined #okfn
20:07:41 <ipe>	Sorry, I see to be having connection issues so might need to leave soon (or get dropped)
20:07:59 <jwyg>	sorry to hear ipe..
20:08:51 <jwyg>	robmyers - for a while i've wanted to start taking pictures in museums/galleries that allow photography
20:08:55 <robmyers>	OK I shall start gathering up links to sources for Hogarth & Durer. There is more than when I last looked (a year or two ago). Brilliant.
20:09:06 <jwyg>	fantastic :-)
20:09:16 <robmyers>	jwyg - Yes that would be good. I have some old photos from when the tate allowed it but they're not very good. :-)
20:09:28 <rgrp>	mlinksva: that looks good the only problem is how to get a nice list of all the relevant pages
20:09:45 <rgrp>	mlinksva: worse case one could just scrape direct from: http://wiki.creativecommons.org/index.php?title=Category:Organization&from=A#mw-pages
20:09:45 <jwyg>	it would be great to have a directory of photography friendly cultural heritage institutions/sites for flickr users :-)
20:09:56 <rgrp>	mlinksva: but i assume there must be a better way
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20:11:06 *	johnb (5162f917@67.207.141.120) has joined #okfn
20:11:11 <jwyg>	hey johnb!
20:11:24 <johnb>	hello!
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20:11:51 <johnb>	all good?
20:12:04 <robmyers>	jwyg: yes a directory of photo-friendly museums would be great
20:12:08 <mlinksva>	rgrp: i'll talk to nyergler and paulproteus about export
20:12:18 <robmyers>	it would help to apply pressure on photo-unfriendly institutions as well
20:12:54 <jwyg>	johnb: yep.. we're just talking about image rights, hogarth, and exporting from into ckan http://wiki.creativecommons.org/ODEPO
20:13:08 <jwyg>	rob true..
20:13:12 <johnb>	oooo hogarth!
20:13:40 <jwyg>	also would love to look into 'releasing' pd images
20:14:02 <jwyg>	so generating a fund + hiring a photographer for places that don't allow public to take pictures
20:14:20 <robmyers>	yes definitely
20:14:25 <jwyg>	especially for publicly funded places
20:14:59 <jwyg>	i wonder whether there is explicit ongoing debate in this area
20:15:12 <robmyers>	many museums/galleries regard photo licensing as a good revenue stream, including public galleries.
20:15:16 <robmyers>	e.g:http://tate.org.uk/research/researchservices/picturelibrary/default.htm
20:15:17 <jwyg>	nods
20:15:45 <robmyers>	jwyg: there is, and art historians are starting to get fed up with the chilling effects of excessive reproduction fees
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20:16:07 *	ipe_ is now known as ipe
20:16:42 <ipe>	Are there any open sources at all? (Sorry, newbie in the area)
20:16:42 <jwyg>	where do people discuss it?
20:16:46 <robmyers>	There was an editorial in a UK journal about that. I'll track down the references
20:16:51 <jwyg>	great!
20:16:58 <jwyg>	i've been following a few papers
20:17:15 <robmyers>	ipe: for what in particular?
20:17:31 <jwyg>	http://www.mileproject.eu/ixbin/indexplus?record=ART73
20:17:44 <robmyers>	So for the photo registry name: Photo Friendly, Camera Friendly?
20:18:04 <jwyg>	sponsored by bridgeman :-)
20:18:17 <ipe>	robmyers: reproducible images
20:18:42 <jwyg>	i couldn't believe how much my dad was asked to pay for reproduction fees...
20:18:49 <jwyg>	for his book cover
20:18:50 <robmyers>	there's lots of stuff on Flickr and Wikimedia Commons
20:19:15 <robmyers>	you can search by license. Flickr is proprietary/closed by default, but has lots of BY/attribution-only images on
20:19:25 <robmyers>	and Wikimedia Commons has lots of Public Domain stuff
20:19:47 <jwyg>	cf also http://ckan.net/tag/read/images (+ image/photo/picture/etc.)
20:20:16 <jwyg>	would anyone like to have a go at fleshing this out/tidying it up?
20:20:32 <jwyg>	i'd really like to get more open image collections on ckan
20:21:00 <jwyg>	one project i've been keen on is an image recycling/cutup project with public domain images from old books
20:21:14 <robmyers>	Dada-style?
20:22:04 <robmyers>	If anyone has an old encyclopaedia from the late C19th that will have lots of good illustrations in that I assume the copyright has expired on.  I only have one such volume. :-/
20:22:25 <jwyg>	exactly rob
20:22:28 <jwyg>	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Une_Semaine_de_Bont%C3%A9
20:22:42 <jwyg>	a la ernst
20:22:46 <jwyg>	i think this could be a fun project
20:22:50 <robmyers>	yes you still get people doing stuff like that. Boing Boing is a magnet for it. ;-)
20:23:07 <jwyg>	especially if there was a big bank of image and web based image manipulation tools
20:23:11 <jwyg>	*images
20:23:34 <jwyg>	its really fun - and a good way to illustrate notion of remixing/re-using
20:24:23 <robmyers>	It would be interesting to cross that over with open Clipart Library.
20:24:33 <robmyers>	Kollabor8 was a good web collab art system http://www.furtherfield.org/displayreview.php?review_id=270
20:24:35 <jwyg>	rob: if you come across anything specific on boingboing - i'd love to see it..
20:25:20 <jwyg>	kollabor8 looks great
20:25:31 <jwyg>	'was'? is it still around?
20:25:47 <jwyg>	ah.. "Please exuse our dust while we are moving and shaking "
20:26:05 <jwyg>	another thing i'd like to hear your view on is an open knowledge competition...
20:26:14 <jwyg>	something really simple and inclusive..
20:26:28 <robmyers>	I'll keep my eyes open. BB defeats my searching most times.
20:26:30 <jwyg>	like making a new image out of a given set..
20:26:43 <jwyg>	or illustrating a short PD work..
20:27:13 <jwyg>	to enter you must use an open license..
20:27:26 <robmyers>	oh illustrating a PD work would be cool
20:27:43 <jwyg>	particularly stories from arabian nights, fairy tales, etc.
20:27:49 <jwyg>	:-)
20:28:06 <jwyg>	and could circulate announcement to art schools, etc.
20:28:29 <robmyers>	Students For Free Culture have done some art competitions, their PD one was a night of the living dead remix competition: http://undeadart.org/
20:28:34 *	ipe_ (~chatzilla@78.147.47.63) has joined #okfn
20:28:58 <robmyers>	yes, if we could get drawn.ca and other illustration sites to cover it that would help as well
20:29:47 <jwyg>	cool!
20:29:51 <robmyers>	I did some new nursery rhymes for Remix Reading and someone asked how I could copyleft them as nursery rhymes are in the public domain. ;-)
20:30:04 <ipe_>	Sorry, I'm going to have to go. Connection keeps crashing. I'll update on some stuff I'm trying out via the help list or next week. 
20:30:06 <robmyers>	Yes a classic text. Bring it alive
20:30:14 <robmyers>	bye ipe
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20:30:32 <jwyg>	sorry to hear ipe!
20:31:03 <jwyg>	hadn't seen undeadart before..
20:31:23 <robmyers>	they also did national barbie in a blender day
20:31:28 <jwyg>	haha
20:31:41 <robmyers>	http://www.barbieinablender.org/
20:32:36 <robmyers>	free art shows (something Tom Chance and I never finished): http://freeartshows.org/shows/past
20:32:48 <jwyg>	scary
20:32:54 <robmyers>	OK I shall add wiki pages.
20:33:23 <robmyers>	oh the Barbie thing? No there's a good reason for it. :-)Mattel used trademark law against artists, so that was a response.
20:33:27 <rgrp>	ipe: no problem
20:33:56 <jwyg>	what is going on in this kind of area at the moment? anything in the UK?
20:34:07 <jwyg>	i saw something really interesting a few weeks ago actually...
20:34:17 <robmyers>	not that I know of . We tried to get a show together in London but that fizzled out.
20:34:20 <robmyers>	oh?
20:34:25 <jwyg>	http://www.openmusicarchive.org
20:34:54 <robmyers>	oh cool. I hadn't seen that.
20:34:56 *	ipe has quit (Ping timeout: 480 seconds)
20:35:16 <jwyg>	will definitely get in touch with them
20:35:18 <jwyg>	looks great
20:35:20 <jwyg>	cf. http://www.openmusicarchive.org/projects/index.php?title=Main_Page
20:35:29 <jwyg>	out-of-copyright archive jazz / blues / music hall & folk
20:35:29 <jwyg>	covered / reworked and remixed by: 
20:35:39 <jwyg>	one thing at the ICA
20:36:24 <jwyg>	looks really great but hasn't been on my radar at all.
20:36:30 <jwyg>	will pop them an email
20:36:31 <robmyers>	yes
20:36:49 <jwyg>	would be great if they'd do something at open everything!
20:37:58 <jwyg>	rgrp: what do you think re: CKAN/CC stuff?
20:38:57 <robmyers>	OK I need to go now. I'll add art, photo, dada and competition stuff to okfn wiki.
20:39:01 <jwyg>	rob: so don't think there's much happening with remix/freeculture stuff in UK atm?
20:39:05 <robmyers>	ah
20:40:27 <jwyg>	robmyers: still there?
20:40:39 <robmyers>	jwyg: I don't really know. I haven't seen any shows focussing on it, but lots of art is referential now and most CDs I buy have endless remixes on.
20:40:56 <robmyers>	I think it's less of a selling point than it was. 
20:41:02 <rgrp>	fashion!
20:41:04 <jwyg>	sorry, i mean specifically CC related remixy stuff
20:41:14 <robmyers>	The one thing that springs to mind are the endless fan trailers for Doctor Who on YouTube. :-)
20:41:16 <robmyers>	Oh I see
20:41:31 <robmyers>	No, not that I'm aware of. I'd love to find out if anything is going on.
20:41:50 <jwyg>	haven't seen anything from Tim Cowlishaw for a while..
20:42:00 <robmyers>	Even Loca Records are taking their time getting their next By-Sa albums out.
20:42:08 <robmyers>	yes I wonder what's happened to him?
20:42:27 <rgrp>	i think he got a busy job :)
20:42:38 <robmyers>	heh
20:42:50 <jwyg>	:-)
20:43:05 <jwyg>	i think a PD image competition would be timely
20:43:25 <jwyg>	especially if some small publisher were willing to offer a small run as a prize...
20:43:27 <robmyers>	I have a job and kids. I just don't bother with sleep. When I first met Cory Doctorow he thought I was from the US given the times I was emailing at. ;-)
20:43:49 <robmyers>	well things can be Lightning Sourced, but yeah it would be good to see a small run
20:43:49 <jwyg>	uh oh :-)
20:44:00 <jwyg>	lightning source?
20:44:02 <robmyers>	I wonder if somewher like Bookartbookshop would be interested
20:44:16 <robmyers>	yeah err lightningpring, Print On Demand People
20:44:24 <jwyg>	ahh..
20:44:43 <jwyg>	i've been wanting to look into POD for a while, but not got round to it..
20:44:51 <jwyg>	are lightning source pretty good?
20:45:00 <jwyg>	*sourced
20:45:00 <robmyers>	MUTE do POD, they're in London and nice people.
20:45:03 <robmyers>	err I think so
20:45:05 <jwyg>	of course..
20:45:12 <jwyg>	who do MUTE use?
20:45:17 <jwyg>	or do they do it themselves?
20:45:36 <robmyers>	http://www.lightning-press.com/
20:45:40 <robmyers>	they use lightning
20:45:56 <robmyers>	there's also lulu.com, who are more Free-friendly apparently
20:46:20 <robmyers>	Somewhere like this would be good for a launch party or something: http://www.bookartbookshop.com/
20:46:44 <robmyers>	quality test: http://drawn.ca/2008/09/03/dear-lulu-sample-book-for-testing-digital-printing/
20:46:52 <robmyers>	so the illustrations would have to be PD dedicated?
20:47:06 <jwyg>	i would imagine so..
20:47:13 <robmyers>	k
20:47:18 <jwyg>	what do you think?
20:47:29 <jwyg>	or cc-by or by-sa
20:48:03 <robmyers>	Well I'm a major copyleft booster, so the more SA the better. But it might be poetic/thought-provoking to demand that the images join the stories in the public domain straight away.
20:48:05 <jwyg>	bookartbookshop looks great
20:48:13 <robmyers>	Anything other than NC or ND. ;-)
20:48:24 <jwyg>	i think there's something quite nice about PD
20:48:35 <robmyers>	yeah I was there the other night for a party. loads of fascinating little books.
20:48:52 <jwyg>	definitely worth digging around and finding out more about small press scene in london
20:48:57 <robmyers>	yes
20:48:58 <jwyg>	i'd love to go there..
20:49:15 <jwyg>	and worth asking around for small contributions for prize..
20:49:28 <jwyg>	i'll ask around.
20:49:31 <robmyers>	kewl
20:50:03 <jwyg>	in general i think it would be great if okf were able to have more open knowledge competitions - with projects too!
20:50:07 <robmyers>	yes
20:50:16 <robmyers>	competitions are good
20:50:21 <jwyg>	(if only we had some friendly sponsors :-) )
20:50:25 <jwyg>	ok
20:50:49 <robmyers>	Yeah. Could see if Dover or Penguin Classics or some PD leeches^D^Dsupporters would support something.
20:51:09 <robmyers>	ok, really do have to go now. :-)
20:51:11 <robmyers>	cul8r
20:52:08 <jwyg>	take care rob!
20:53:22 <jwyg>	thanks for coming along!
20:53:52 <jwyg>	true re: publishers... rgrp has spoken about offsetting in the past..
20:54:09 <rgrp>	l8r
20:54:33 <jwyg>	johnb are you still with us?
20:54:41 <jwyg>	how you getting on rgrp?
20:56:28 <rgrp>	i'm ok
20:56:34 <rgrp>	i think i will leave pretty soon :)
20:56:59 <jwyg>	cool
20:57:06 <jwyg>	did you get anywhere with CKAN/CC stuff?
20:57:18 <jwyg>	what do you think?
20:57:32 <rgrp>	it is definitely possible
20:57:35 <jwyg>	great!
20:57:38 <rgrp>	question of time and effort
20:57:40 <jwyg>	nods
20:57:43 <jwyg>	as usual :-)
20:58:05 <jwyg>	good to know these things are interoperable though
20:59:03 <jwyg>	OERCommons were also keen to share
20:59:22 <rgrp>	yes. the question is whether we want lots of oers or actual pakcages ..
20:59:41 <rgrp>	slightly dubious that we might end up with a *lot* of small bits of stuff
20:59:57 <jwyg>	true.. better to hand pick i guess
21:00:30 <jwyg>	i still think virtual ckan package parties are a good way to go.. need more momentum though..
21:01:06 <jwyg>	ok..
21:01:15 <jwyg>	better turn in.
21:01:31 <rgrp>	jwyg: we are doing fine :)
21:02:31 <jwyg>	nods - perhaps might start doing 'a package a day' on ckan
21:02:37 <jwyg>	only takes a few mins.
21:02:57 <rgrp>	that would be great
21:03:05 <rgrp>	what we need now is to get datapkg working etc
21:03:07 <jwyg>	also keen to start cracking into some
21:03:15 <jwyg>	have you played with processing?
21:03:23 <jwyg>	very much looking forward to datapkg
21:03:42 <jwyg>	do you think multiple download links should be a ticket?
21:04:03 <rgrp>	what about download_links?
21:04:07 <rgrp>	you mean having multiple?
21:04:12 <jwyg>	or should we break into separate packages?
21:04:14 <jwyg>	nods
21:04:20 <jwyg>	e.g. in different formats
21:04:24 <jwyg>	or different mirrors
21:04:44 <rgrp>	i think this is listed as a ticket
21:04:48 <jwyg>	great! :-)
21:05:24 <jwyg>	alright..
21:05:31 <jwyg>	better have dinner :-)
21:06:00 <rgrp>	ok, good ession
21:06:04 <rgrp>	speak soon :)
21:06:22 <jwyg>	yep.
21:06:25 <jwyg>	:-)
21:06:44 <jwyg>	one last thing, do you know anyone from tactical tech?
21:06:54 <jwyg>	they sent me their little book on visualisation
21:07:00 <jwyg>	its really sweet
21:07:12 <jwyg>	http://www.opentextbook.org/2008/08/12/visualizing-information-for-advocacy-an-introduction-to-information-design/
21:07:20 <jwyg>	copy just arrived in the post
21:07:26 <jwyg>	cc-by
21:07:28 <rgrp>	no -- i was put on to them by the lady from OSI (i think that may be why they sent us the book)
21:07:30 <jwyg>	(-sa)
21:07:45 <jwyg>	ah!
21:08:01 <jwyg>	i blogged them and assumed that was why they got in touch..
21:08:16 <johnb>	i know several people at tactical tech
21:08:35 <jwyg>	they seem great
21:08:42 <jwyg>	i only just realised they were based in brighton
21:08:51 <jwyg>	for some reason thought they were US based
21:08:54 <johnb>	we could go and visit them
21:09:08 <jwyg>	we should definitely invite them down to next visualisation workshop
21:09:14 <jwyg>	yeah - i'd be up for that!
21:09:33 <jwyg>	johnb: if you'd be keen, perhaps we could go down in nov?
21:09:58 <jwyg>	brighton's my neck of the woods :-)
21:10:24 <jwyg>	anyhow - better shoot..
21:10:36 <johnb>	yeah - let's try to arrange something with them
21:10:43 <johnb>	okay bye bye
21:10:56 <rgrp>	bye to all
21:10:57 <rgrp>	o&o
21:11:00 *	rgrp has quit (Quit: leaving)
21:11:55 <jwyg>	'night all!
21:12:36 *	johnb has quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
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